Trek H1 versus H2 fit

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richwolski
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Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:58 am

by richwolski

I didn't see much on-line regarding personal experiences with deciding between an H1 and an H2 fit so I thought (uncharacteristically) I'd share mine.

I had a 1992 Trek 5200 OCLV (which I had bough new) that finally cracked. It was my second, the primary ride being a 2009 Madone 6.5 Pro which is pretty close to an H1 fit. Trek made good on the warranty after 23 years (no -- I don't have a receipt) but only up to $2000 U.S which is what I paid for the bike back then. No complaints. I got more than $2000 worth of miles out of the bike. Trek basically paid me to ride it and I was sad to see it go.

The local bike shop asked if I wanted to use the money to get another Trek and, if so, which one. My thinking was that I wanted an Emonda (light) in an and H1 fit to match the fit of my Madone, and I wanted Dura Ace. However the SL8 in an H2 was considerably cheaper and still lighter than the Madone (although not tremendously so).

The question, then, was "How close could I get an H2 fit to the H1 fit than the Madone has?" I really like the fit on the Madone so the ideal thing would have been for the fit of what ever I got to be exactly the same. Also, I wasn't exactly sure, that the 2016 H1 would have been the same as the "Pro" fit from 2009. No one could really tell me that it would be perfect, making the risk of the extra money considerable.

After fooling with a Demo SL8 (our local shop is really great for road cyclists) and reading a bit about the geometries, I convinced myself that I could make the H2 come pretty close to the Pro fit (and hence close to an H1). There are some caveats, however.

First, my stem on the Madone was at the top (in terms of head-set spacers) where on the H2 I needed to put it on the bottom which, I agree, looks a little rag tag. I don't see it when I ride so I don't much care, but the look definitely isn't sleek and professional.

I didn't have to go with a negative stem angle to get a bar height that was close (within 1/5 cm) relative to the front spindle. I might make that change at some point but having aged a bit, I find myself welcoming the slightly higher bars on long climbs but I curse them every time I hit the wind. The difference is slight, however, and not something I found troubling especially since I can "cure" it with a different stem.

The hard part of making the H2 fit work for me was the reach (the horizontal distance between the bottom bracket an a vertical line dropped from the center of the head set) . The Madone's reach is 39cm where it looks like the H2 is 38.1 cm (I ride a 54). That almost full centimeter difference turned out to be important, and a little tricky, with respect to getting the H2 dialed in.

For example, just moving the saddle back 1 cm doesn't work since it puts my knees too far behind the pedal spindles for my liking.

In the end, I wound up moving the saddle back 0.5 cm and up about 0.3 cm. The result has the plumb from my knees in about the right place since raising the saddle also caused me to rotate my hips forward slightly. Indeed the bar height and saddle height difference is almost exactly what it is on the Madone -- I just have a little more leg extension and I catch a little more wind because I'm sitting higher on the bike overall.

Bottom line: the H2 fit doesn't exactly match the H1-like "Pro" fit I was hoping to achieve but it is really pretty close. I switch back and forth between both bikes (one is in the office and the other at home) and I can tell the difference (especially when I first get on the Madone) but only for the first couple of minutes. After that they both feel natural. However, I do notice the extra wind I grab on the H2 but also the slightly better climbing position once I get out and going.

In my opinion, if you are super fussy about fit, and you are riding an H1 or a full-race fit, then you'll want to stick with it. If you can live the with aesthetic differences and a slight fit change favoring less aero and more climbing, then the H2 will work but you'll need to fiddle with the various fit parameters until you get something that feels close.

Cheers,

Rich

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fa63
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Location: Atlanta, GA, US

by fa63

They make stems in many lengths, so you can adjust your reach without having to change your saddle position you know :)

Why didn't you try a 1 cm longer stem with the new bike?

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AJS914
Posts: 5397
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

That's what I was thinking. Pics?

My buddy just got an h2 Madonne. I was looking at the specs and wondering about the look of h1 with spacers vs h2 slammed. (I'd have it slammed to get to my current position which is not that aggressive.

grover
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Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 1:06 pm

by grover

Just as an example
56cm H1 with 120mm stem, negative 6 degree angle
56cm H2 with 120mm stem, negative 17 degree angle
Both 'look' good, slammed stem, negative stem.
H1 bike is 5mm longer reach, 5mm lower stack. Personally, I say that's negligable.

So unless you're running a very negative stem with no spacers on your H1 bike an H2 bike will work for you. People complain about lack of H1 fit in certain bikes. But most of the time it's due to ignorance or wanting to have the 'pro' bike with a short head tube.

It sounds like you had some spacers under the stem on your Madone. If that's the case the H2 Emonda is easily able to replicate your fit with the right stem without changing your saddle height/setback. Remember that if you have spacers under the stem you not only increase the 'stack' but also decrease the 'reach'. Rough rule of thumb, every 3mm spacer under the stem decreases reach by 1mm. So if you had 30mm of spacers under your stem on the Madone, you're reach is 380mm, not 390mm...the same as the H2 Emonda.

So another example
56cm H1 with 120mm stem, negative 6 degree angle, 30mm spacers
56cm H2 with 120mm stem, negative 6 degree angle, 0mm spacers (slammed)
H1 bike is exactly the same reach, 1mm higher stack. That is negligable.

Some useful tools
http://yojimg.net/bike/web_tools/stem.php
http://ttbikefit.com/stemcalc.html

boots2000
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by boots2000

So are you saying that you had a full spacer stack under the stem on Madone but need to be slammed on the Emonda?
Less spacers is preferable to me.
Yes, you may need a different stem length to get reach the exact same. Or different reach bars.
I do not think the H2 is overly tall- more that the H1 is quite aggressive.

eric
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by eric


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djconnel
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by djconnel

Here's a plot showing the old Madone H1:

Image

The diagonal lines from lower right to upper left are what you get from adding spacers with a 73 deg HTA. The mostly horizontal lines are what you get from adding 0 deg step (+/- 6 deg would slope slightly steeper or slightly less steep; -17 deg would be horizontal). All increments are 1 cm. I compare with Cervélo because they basically started the stack-reach design that Trek uses here. The Domane is the Domane Race which has been replaced with the Domane Classics but they also have a Koppenberg which is like the Emonda H1.

Emonda H1 is in this plot -- less aggressive than the old Madone. The Madone 9 is like the Emonda.

Image

aerodynamiq
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Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:32 am

by aerodynamiq

My friend has an Emonda with H2 geometry and I can tell you that it's not really super high in the headtube.
velonode.cc

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Tqubed
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by Tqubed

H1s are too aggressive for me. My Madone 7 is a H2.


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ZappBrannigan
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Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 6:58 am

by ZappBrannigan

If you are an old man pushing 60, ride once a week or have a bad back get the H2. If you do not have any of those things get the H1 or buy from a company with more aggressive "$4,000.00"entry level geometry, not all of us want to spend $9,000.00 to avoid getting hammered in head winds. Sure you can go with a super negative stem and ask yourself why the hell you bought this particular frame every time you look at it's rediculousness, kicking yourself for being too poor to get the good one, but why suffer through that when you already pay a premium for a Trek.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

This thing with stack height is leaving things to consider.
Let's say you set up your bike with a difference of minimum 10mm stack height.

You ride with more streched arms in the lower setting (ofcourse).
If you would progressively heighten stack from the lowest stack you can handle, you can hit a sweet spot.
This may actually prove that you sit in same position (your bent posture), but you have a more bent arm posture than with the lower stack setting.
Both on the hoods and in the drops!

This would prove you actually are as low with the upper body as with the lower stack, but you have a better comfort and your neck and shoulders might be less affected, less prone to give you pain.

This may not be true to all riders, but many will surely have a better outcome.

So, where does that leave us?

That stack height may actually be different, but upper body posture remains same.
The difference is in your ability to modulate your arms.

All things considered, low stack of frame and/ or handlebar, in a static sense, may not be more aero.

I see this may come out strange to some of you, but you could probably test this yourself.
You may need a few spacers and one stem that is longer and one shorter, but i think most understand.

I would for sure get the H2 version Madone. From what i have been told of the distributor, the H2 is best suited to riders which are not super flexible.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

jeffy
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by jeffy

this all depending on your definition of "not superflexible", and "an old man pushing 60, ride once a week or have a bad back get the H2" is ridiculous. Some, vaguely in the region reasonably flexible and with decent mobility might struggle with h2 if their proportions are within certain parameters. Middle aged with poor flexibility riding once a week is likely suited to a Domane.

But i forget that not riding an H1 proportioned geometry makes you less of a human.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

This was about H1 and H2, not Domane which i think is H3.
I merely ment an H2 is still not a none race bike.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

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