Mechanical groupsets at it's pinnacle, ... or?

[tymon_tm]

All you guys who prefer mechanical, have you actually tried electronic? Not for 1 or 2 rides. Have you owned electronics for so lang, that you had to charge it and switched wheels a couple of times?

My point isn't, that if you haven't tried it properly, you don't know what you're talking about. My point is, that when you have something, that works - your mechanical groupset - you're thinking, why would I pay more, for something, that does the same thing. But when you try it properly, you realize, that even though a mechanical groupset works fine, there's actually something out there, that does it so much better.

There's always someone claiming, I like the feel of mechanical. For me it's a question of result. Does it shift everytime - yes it does. I never missed a shift, never lost the chain - and that counts for both front an rear mech. And I'm done with adjusting gears when switching wheels - thank god.

let me counter with two things: buying a groupset just to try it off isn't quite affordable for most of people. especially since it's A LOT more expensive than it's mechanical equivalent.

second, I don't need *more* than what already works for me. seriously, this new religion of consumerism pushes people to buy new things, spend more money, just for the sake of a promise that isn't often related to what they really need or want. those needs, desires are being falsely created, blown outta proportion with every new *feature*. I kinda feel sorry for people who can't live without constant upgrades to their precious goods, which don't bring anything better to their lives other than the sense of HAVING the "very best". so no, I refuse to go that road, because I DON'T NEED THAT. if you feel there's something wrong with your gear, then sure, by all means, go and explore spending ridiculous sums on tiny (if any) improvements. it has nothing to do with passion too, as it doesn't require your own input - just your credit card.

I freakin hate the world where a product innovation becomes a dogma and starts living it's own existence, creating a separate universe that allures people who were just fine without it. just look at what cell phones... sorry, smartphones did to people. look at how stupid cars are these days. what's also pretty significant is that all this progress decreases reliability and durability - the very basic qualities of every product, that somehow got tossed away in the process.

[Grill]

All you guys who prefer mechanical, have you actually tried electronic? Not for 1 or 2 rides. Have you owned electronics for so lang, that you had to charge it and switched wheels a couple of times?

My point isn't, that if you haven't tried it properly, you don't know what you're talking about. My point is, that when you have something, that works - your mechanical groupset - you're thinking, why would I pay more, for something, that does the same thing. But when you try it properly, you realize, that even though a mechanical groupset works fine, there's actually something out there, that does it so much better.

There's always someone claiming, I like the feel of mechanical. For me it's a question of result. Does it shift everytime - yes it does. I never missed a shift, never lost the chain - and that counts for both front an rear mech. And I'm done with adjusting gears when switching wheels - thank god.

Yes. I've had Di2 on my TT bike for the last two seasons and absolutely love it. Being able to shift from the bullhorns is a massive boon in most races I've done. It's actually the reason I went 9070 on my Storck. Unfortunately I haven't been remotely impressed with Di2 on the road bike. Setting it up is no more difficult than with a mechanical gruppo, and not having to index is nice, although it's never taken me more than a 10 seconds to get it right with a mechanical set up. I got on my steel bike with 6800 after having ridden nothing but 9070 for a couple weeks and absolutely loved it. The feel was far more tactile and the shifting was no more difficult. In fact I loved it so much I took my heavy ass steel to the Alps for a week instead of my sub 6kg Storck. Over that time I never missed a shift and never had to adjust either mech (Shimano mechanical just works as long as you've set it up correctly).

In short my TT bikes will always have an electronic groupset. My road bikes will always have mechanical groupsets. Not sure where mechanical can go from 5800/6800/9000 but I'll happily use them in 20 years time if their replacements are anywhere near as good.

[tranzformer]

let me counter with two things: buying a groupset just to try it off isn't quite affordable for most of people. especially since it's A LOT more expensive than it's mechanical equivalent.

So then how an one speak about something, if one hasn't experienced that something? Seems a bit strange to have a bunch of guys talk about Di2 when they haven't even spent significant time using it (not talking about a test ride in the shop parking lot wearing flip-flops).

But there are a lot of people on here that get a new bike every year/every other year. Yeah not everyone on here. But for some members on here, paying extra for Di2 isn't going to break the bike build fund. Btw, Di2 isn't "A LOT" more expensive that the mechanical equivalent.

second, I don't need *more* than what already works for me. seriously, this new religion of consumerism pushes people to buy new things, spend more money, just for the sake of a promise that isn't often related to what they really need or want. those needs, desires are being falsely created, blown outta proportion with every new *feature*. I kinda feel sorry for people who can't live without constant upgrades to their precious goods, which don't bring anything better to their lives other than the sense of HAVING the "very best". so no, I refuse to go that road, because I DON'T NEED THAT. if you feel there's something wrong with your gear, then sure, by all means, go and explore spending ridiculous sums on tiny (if any) improvements. it has nothing to do with passion too, as it doesn't require your own input - just your credit card.

New religion of consumerism? There is nothing new about that. Let me guess, you don't own a smart phone nor have high speed internet nor have other modern day conveniences since those would be giving into the religion of consumerism?

I have no idea what bikes you ride or what your cycling budget is. But for one, there will always been someone who will think you spend too much time and money on this hobby of ours. Secondly, if we can't have nice gear, than why even have this forum?

I freakin hate the world where a product innovation becomes a dogma and starts living it's own existence, creating a separate universe that allures people who were just fine without it. just look at what cell phones... sorry, smartphones did to people. look at how stupid cars are these days. what's also pretty significant is that all this progress decreases reliability and durability - the very basic qualities of every product, that somehow got tossed away in the process.

What is wrong with product innovation? I don't get it. Do you complain that you have a car or use public transportation and wish you had a horse and carriage instead? Do you complain about having a dishwasher or washing machine? You make product innovation sound like a sin.

No one is saying that older products or parts aren't worthy of being used anymore. 9 speed and 10 speed bikes still work. But despite that, there is something regarding the improvements that Di2 have made. Whether that is worth it to you or not is up to you. But you can't really judge that until you actually use it more than a 5-10 min test ride around the parking lot.

[Marin]

Following that line of thought would render all arguments about why someone never wants to try something invalid.

[tymon_tm]

So then how an one speak about something, if one hasn't experienced that something? Seems a bit strange to have a bunch of guys talk about Di2 when they haven't even spent significant time using it (not talking about a test ride in the shop parking lot wearing flip-flops).

if I'm not mistaken, this topic is about mechanicals. I don't give my opinion on Di2 but on mechanical groupsets. I've tried (only tried, like few rides) Di2, but didn't really have to do that to know that a regular DA 9000 suits me just perfectly. just like 7900 and 7800 did. from my perspective, of someone who does 10-15k kms a year, this is the top. anything above is just fancy.

But there are a lot of people on here that get a new bike every year/every other year. Yeah not everyone on here. But for some members on here, paying extra for Di2 isn't going to break the bike build fund. Btw, Di2 isn't "A LOT" more expensive that the mechanical equivalent.

of course, there are always people who pay extra to get in front of equipment progress. It's fine for them I guess as long as they have the extra cash. but when shops try to sell electronic to consumers with limited budgets (say: 3000euro) they're not acting in clients best interests IMO, as for the buck they could well get overally better bikes - better wheels for instance - with mechanical groupset.

New religion of consumerism? There is nothing new about that. Let me guess, you don't own a smart phone nor have high speed internet nor have other modern day conveniences since those would be giving into the religion of consumerism?

I have no idea what bikes you ride or what your cycling budget is. But for one, there will always been someone who will think you spend too much time and money on this hobby of ours. Secondly, if we can't have nice gear, than why even have this forum?

it's not new, point taken, but vastly spreading across the markets. and I'd argue that the line between what's necessary/functional and what's fancy/whimsy has been wiped out by the propaganda of a necessity to have the very latest iteration of literally everything. products' life cycles are getting shorter, *features* are piling up with every new generation, and the quality decreases so rapidly, your product often breakes before a new version surfaces from the cheap work camps in Asia.

of course it's not about living the life of a caveman ditching all the modern technology, but my view is that the world (as: us, the consumers) has lost a balance in all of this.

as for WW - it was born out of passion, not some irrational desire to have the best, the latest. don't confuse the two.

What is wrong with product innovation? I don't get it. Do you complain that you have a car or use public transportation and wish you had a horse and carriage instead? Do you complain about having a dishwasher or washing machine? You make product innovation sound like a sin.

No one is saying that older products or parts aren't worthy of being used anymore. 9 speed and 10 speed bikes still work. But despite that, there is something regarding the improvements that Di2 have made. Whether that is worth it to you or not is up to you. But you can't really judge that until you actually use it more than a 5-10 min test ride around the parking lot.

[/quote]

to answer this briefly: nothing's wrong yet everything is. but first, let's distinguish the strive for innovation behind the closed doors of labs and various science institutes that bring us cancer cures, graphite or white laser technology, and simply making our daily life instruments, like phones, cars, or the household goods *better*. by *better* I mean adding the qualities that aren't crucial to functionality. like laptops being thin as a sheet of paper. smartphones being the size of small tablets. 3-cylinder, direct intake, turbocharged 1.6 engines that produce just 100hp. freezers that order food. all would be well, if those laptops' batteries lasted longer than a year or two, phones didn't break under stronger grip or crash their operating systems every once in a while, the engines were durable enough to cover more than 100.000 kms without a major breakdown.. etc, etc.

so yeah the progress that makes me visit shops or repair services more frequently than 10 years ago is not a progress at all. getting back to cycling, my first bike was some alu on RX100. heavy, flexy, the drivetrain was awfull. 6 or 7 years ago I bought a winter bike on alu/CF frame with 105, pricetag-wise, almost an exact equivalent of my first ride. boy it was day and night. that's the kind of improvement I'm talking about. when I sold it after two years, some minor tweaks and it rode like new. now, with electronics, nothing's that obvious. I can agree it shifts a bit 'nicer', the front mostly. but maybe 'differently' is the better word. on the other hand it introduces problems previously unknown - like those described in the recent rear der Ultegra DI2 topic. battery issues, software issues. 'unknown' malfunctions that won't allow you to ride your bike without a specialists' help. I've no clue what are the % ratings of failures in electronic groupsets, but the reason they even exist in the first place is because it's electronics.

so for me, all things considered, Di2 is not a progress. it's a fancy option. potentially unreliable and problematic expensive option over something perfectly good.

[Butcher]

The first 'in anything' has issues. If you were a manufacturer that made it right the first time, you'll probably be too late to the market. The best manufacturers make junk [ie Microsoft].

Campy came up with the 11 speed, I had it. There were some issues in the beginning and they eventually got worked out through the consumers who bought them. They also came up with a 4 year warranty to convince the market, that it was a good choice.

Electrics had there issues too. Consumers will work them out and then all will be fine. If it was not a good choice, then the market would be small. Obviously, everyone is jumping on the electric market.

As for mechanical systems, I really do not feel there is anything they can do to make things better. Small gains here and there have been made and those gains now are getting smaller and smaller. Marketing gets you to buy those smaller gains. You need those gains to make your life better. Only you can say if your life will be better with those gains. Can't blame the manufacturer for trying. Heck, I'm glad that there is now 11 speeds and index shifting. I started with 5 speed and friction.

I think the next step is more speeds. With more speeds, electrics will shine, due to the tolerances that will be needed. This will occur when the discs come into the norm on road bikes. From my understanding, they'll need more room for the rear disc and walla, more room for extra speeds. Mechanical systems will attempt to jump into that market too.

[53x12]

IMO, jump from mechanical to electronic was a much bigger jump/improvement/benefit than going from 10 speed to 11 speed or even 9 speed to 10 speed.

[tymon_tm]

I think the next step is more speeds. With more speeds, electrics will shine, due to the tolerances that will be needed. This will occur when the discs come into the norm on road bikes. From my understanding, they'll need more room for the rear disc and walla, more room for extra speeds. Mechanical systems will attempt to jump into that market too.

I agree, increasing cassettes to 12 sprockets must be a heck of a challenge in terms of shifting precission, and electronic probably is better suited to it. this of course begs the question if 2x12 groupsets make any sense, especially since many people here are convinced 1x11 does the job. as for discs, I feel it's going to be much greater experiment than electronics, and probably the next season will tell how and if teams and pro cyclists adopt to them.

[Nefarious86]

I must be weird, I still prefer the shifting of the 9000 on my race bike over the 6870/R785 on my everything else bike...

[FIJIGabe]

I don't see 12-speed coming to fruition on the current 130mm wheel spacing standard. I believe the next "advancement" we'll see is a move to a 142mm standard, which will allow 13, 14 or more rear cogs (probably eliminating the FD).

[AJS914]

I'm glad cycling is advancing and that electronic groups are generally well reviewed.

For me right now, it's a value proposition. Like I said before, I just don't see how Chorus EPS is going to be $800 better than the Chrous 11s I have now or maybe better phrased, I don't see how it's going to provide me $800 more enjoyment. Plus I now have to charge my bike. I'd rather have a new $800 wheelset or some other bike bling.

I also wonder what used EPS parts are going to be worth in 10 years. Over the last couple of years I upgrade all my bikes to 11 speed. I really liked the 11s and I wanted to be current. I was able to sell my stash of used 9s and 10s Campy parts for practically what I paid for them. The resale is amazing. Either a 10 year old EPS rear derailleur is going to be worth gold because there are no spares left or it's going to be worthless like a 10 year old laptop or phone. I'm not sure how it's going to go.

[Multebear]

@tymon_tm; just out curiosity, why did you move from 7800 to 7900 to 9000? Didn't the Dura Ace 7800 do the job?

[wheelsONfire]

May i ask, since i started this thread. Why is it a need to force this into an argument of electronic vs mechanical?
I don't see what it really has to do with the (threads) question?
You love electronic shifting, i understand that it's all fine and good and i am happy for you.
But i wonder, can't other people have a right to like mechanical shifting without being bashed?

I am also rather sure mechanical can be further improved. That is what this is all about. We all know mechanical is good and as it is.
From here and on, it may handle fine tuning or a new thinking all together.
Maybe some day, we can tension wire without opening the pinch bolt that holds the wire!?

For sure electronic can advance way more than it has. First thing may be to get rid of cable looms as we see Sram as already here.

I am sure it can shift automatical in a few years by a learning curve, pending on each users way of input to shifting.
But that is another thread my dear cycling friends. I love to see all of your ideas, but please, try to be friends instead of being hot headed are you nice.
There is no reason to argue!

[tymon_tm]

@tymon_tm; just out curiosity, why did you move from 7800 to 7900 to 9000? Didn't the Dura Ace 7800 do the job?

I switched because my first DA 7800 was worn out after few seasons and it made more sense at the time just to go for a whole new groupset'. but I sold the 7900 after a year or so, as I was in a phase if trying new stuff. ended up with 9000. but still half the kms I do are on Ultegra - I'm not a zillionaire.

but if you ask me, bang for buck, the 7800 is... well, was by far the best of them all.

[Johnny Rad]

Thanks for nothing! This thread isn't helping me one bit make a pricey decision between DA 9000 and Di2 9070. I found lots of good points and some new ones in here. I've arrived at the seemingly ubiquitous conclusion that DA 9000 is dialed-in quite nicely AND (more importantly?) that I shouldn't ride Di2 unless I'm ready to blow the budget. My pocketbook doesn't want to know the answer about how good Di2 might be, so I'll try not to ask.

What does the near future hold? Discs and electronic shifting are clouding my crystal ball, but I'd be surprised if they both weren't de rigueur. If I upgrade today and keep my bike for the next 2-5 years, I'll be the F. Coppi reference noted earlier. I'll be the guy on a steel bike with SR 8spd down tube shifters bemoaning innovation (but not my lack of foresight, ha!).