Professional Fit or Bull S***

Back by popular demand, the general all-things Road forum!

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wingguy
Posts: 4318
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 pm

by wingguy

Mr.Gib wrote: I ride a curved saddle and I need the front third level to the ground. Every fitter would want to raise the nose a bit so the center section would be level.


Nope. Not every fitter.

pamountainbiker
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:49 am

by pamountainbiker

Last year prior to purchasing a custom bike I had 3 bike fit sessions done back to back to back. In all I paid almost $1,200 in total although I received a rebate of $450 on one since I purchased the bike through one of the shops. The "systems" employed were Retul, Guru and Serotta Fit Systems (or whatever it's called now). Honestly, I came away from that experience barely satisfied with any of the fitters. First, and I'll just say this off the cusp, 2 of the fitters who worked for reputable shops definitely tried to sell me the brands they carried. I understand that is their job but it always created a little bit of skepticism about the results of the fits because magically in those instance they had bikes that would work very nicely for my fit profiles. Again, I get that this is how it works, but it never felt impartial.

Now to the fits. All three results were vastly different. This is what's annoying. I did these all back to back to back over the course of two weeks, yet my results were all different. How different you ask? For starters my seat setback recommendations had a variance of 3.5 CM between low and high. Over a 2.5 CM variance in reach recommendations. 1 CM variance in saddle heights (ok maybe this is reasonable), different width handlebar recommendations, 1 CM different in fore aft cleat placement. And finally recommendation for saddle to handlebar drop that ranged for 6 cm to 10.5 CM! 1 shop that did the fit was a very high end bespoke concierge shop. 1 shop was a larger volume award winning shop, 1 shop was a small place owned and run independently. On top of that, there was sloppiness from every one of the providers. Whether it was not having the right saddle for the setup on hand or literally eyeballing things that should have actually been measured, etc. So that was a bit disconcerting.

So what did I end up doing in regard to fit. Thankfully, I didn't really have any cycling issues such as aching knees, I was more or less getting a fit confirmation for my new custom bike. I essentially used a combination of measurements from my existing bike, plus measurements from teh fit sessions I knew to be accurate (i.e. for 15 years my saddle setback has been 4.5 CM - so the Serotta fit identified that and I used that as opposed to 7.5 CM). The Serotta fit however said that my saddle to bar reach should be about 1 CM shorter than it actually is. This typically wouldn't be an issue but I ride a pretty short frame and that extra 1 CM shorter makes me feel like I'm riding a kids bike and gives me a humped back.

My point in all of this is that bike fit is not a science, not even close. If you have fit issues sure, get a fit, but realize that it might not be gospel. Also realize that the pervading philosophy of the fit system weighs heavily on how the bike fit comes out. I.e. I can universally identify custom bikes where the fitter was a Serotta trained specialist. They tend to be shorter and higher with larger/longer headtubes. Whereas Retul fits typically produce more of a streamlined proto typical roadie look. Again this is a vast generalization but you get my point.

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wingguy
Posts: 4318
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 pm

by wingguy

pamountainbiker wrote:First, and I'll just say this off the cusp, 2 of the fitters who worked for reputable shops definitely tried to sell me the brands they carried. I understand that is their job but it always created a little bit of skepticism about the results of the fits because magically in those instance they had bikes that would work very nicely for my fit profiles. Again, I get that this is how it works, but it never felt impartial.


Mate, that's not magic, it's bike manufacturers knowing their job and knowing how geometries work. Unless you're a real outlier in proportion or flexibility (or you're over 6'5"ish or under 5'2" ish) you'll find that damn near any major brand that makes bikes in both racing and sportive geometries will have something that fits you. Why? Because they're not stupid. They know how most people fit on a bike, and they make their bikes with adjustability parameters to match.

In fact (again if you're mostly normal in size, shape and requirements) I'd take it as a pretty bad sign if any bike shop didn't have any bikes that matched the results of your fit. It would mean that, for some reason, your position didn't match the way that any of their manufacturers intended any of their bikes to be ridden. Why would you expect that to be the case?

pamountainbiker
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:49 am

by pamountainbiker

Sure, actually I should have been more specific, in both instances I set the fit sessions under the express purposes of letting them know I was already working with a builder, and in both circumstances some examples of bikes and the resulting set up included using 50 CM stems. and in one case 4 CM of spacers. BTW, I should mention that they were very nice about it but the set ups I was sent were entertaining. And I think in both instances it was for inventory they had in stock. So, hey, I took it for what it was worth - and in one case I still purchase from one of the LBS' in question when I'm in their vicinity.

0psi
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:07 pm

by 0psi

pamountainbiker wrote:For starters my seat setback recommendations had a variance of 3.5 CM between low and high. Over a 2.5 CM variance in reach recommendations. 1 CM variance in saddle heights (ok maybe this is reasonable), different width handlebar recommendations, 1 CM different in fore aft cleat placement. And finally recommendation for saddle to handlebar drop that ranged for 6 cm to 10.5 CM!


Don't suppose the fits that had more saddle setback also had your bars higher with less reach?

As for your cleats, I'd guess those who had them further forward were a bit more old school. There is no real reason to have your cleats under the ball of your foot. It's just some arbitrary thing someone would have come up with many years ago and for some reason it stuck. Much like knee over pedal spindle. My stock position for most people is to just slam the cleats back as far as they'll go. I've had many people argue with me over this and ask why I haven't positioned the cleat under the ball of their foot. I've told them to trust me and give it a go. So far the total number of people that have come back saying they weren't happy with it is a massive zero. Only time I'd deviate from this is if the client is a track rider or sprinter.

lannes
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:51 pm

by lannes

These guidelines are a good starting point.

http://bikedynamics.co.uk/guidelines.htm

0psi
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:07 pm

by 0psi

lannes wrote:These guidelines are a good starting point.

http://bikedynamics.co.uk/guidelines.htm


That's actually not too bad. Only thing I'm not a huge fan of is the blanket X degree hip angle for X style of riding. Taking into account what a rider can and can't do is very important and should guide the fit. There really isn't much point putting a rider into an aero race position if they can't even touch their toes.

Likewise hip angle shouldn't really change too much if you are going from a road race bike to a TT bike. Essentially you are just rotating the whole rider around the BB to get the front end lower. Then again there isn't much point setting a rider up in a steep position if they don't have the core strength to comfortably hold that position.

cyclenutnz
Posts: 854
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:18 am
Location: Cambridge, New Zealand
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by cyclenutnz

0psi wrote: Only time I'd deviate from this is if the client is a track rider or sprinter.


I don't even do it for them - haven't found any research to support setups for sprinting that use lower leg more.

pamountainbiker wrote: I.e. I can universally identify custom bikes where the fitter was a Serotta trained specialist. They tend to be shorter and higher with larger/longer headtubes. Whereas Retul fits typically produce more of a streamlined proto typical roadie look. Again this is a vast generalization but you get my point.


If you can typify a fitters style it shows they're doing something wrong. Fits should be suited to the individual.
definitely easy to spot someone Serotta trained - put the saddle and bars so high that no stock bike will fit so the client has to go custom. Coincidentally Serotta sold custom bikes...
These days we have BG Fit where the whole point is to sell saddles, shoes, wedges and getting minor stuff like the saddle height and setback right is secondary.

wingguy
Posts: 4318
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 pm

by wingguy

:up:

mdeth1313
Posts: 2069
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:38 am
Location: Dutchess County, NY

by mdeth1313

First fitter I used did nothing for me except tell me all of my equipment was wrong. Even my frame was wrong, but it was "workable". Tried to have me use all of their stuff -- too bad for them I'm a WW and I'd have none of it-- found my own stuff w/ his specs. Waste of $300 on a retul fit. Didn't do any work setting up my cleats or shoes and never picked up on my leg length difference. Retul did nothing for me -- not because of retul, because I had an egocentric idiot doing my fitting.

A few years later I went for a fit with a different fitter, different shop. He picked up on my leg length issue just by looking at how I stood. Changed the position of my saddle and my bars, but wanted no equipment changes and spent most of the time working w/ my cleat setup to get me pedaling correctly and efficiently. Only thing extra I needed was a shim for the cleat.

I went back this year after getting a warranty replacement frame and I needed a longer stem-- his words on the replacement: "I know you use all the superlight parts so I'll loan you this bontrager stem and when you get your replacement you can just drop it off."

I've had other issues this year and he's been in contact through the whole thing by email and phone-- as it turned out I have a herniated disc. He was also the first person to pick up on that - saying it had to be coming from nerve compression in the L4/L5 area before I even had an MRI. Dude knows his s--t, I'll never go anywhere else.

There's fitters and then there's fitters.
Speedplay is the devil!

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 6283
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

Sounds like playing lotto... no good sales propaganda!
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

TheKaiser
Posts: 653
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:29 pm

by TheKaiser

mdeth1313 wrote:A few years later I went for a fit with a different fitter, different shop. He picked up on my leg length issue just by looking at how I stood. Changed the position of my saddle and my bars, but wanted no equipment changes and spent most of the time working w/ my cleat setup to get me pedaling correctly and efficiently. Only thing extra I needed was a shim for the cleat.

I went back this year after getting a warranty replacement frame and I needed a longer stem-- his words on the replacement: "I know you use all the superlight parts so I'll loan you this bontrager stem and when you get your replacement you can just drop it off."

I've had other issues this year and he's been in contact through the whole thing by email and phone-- as it turned out I have a herniated disc. He was also the first person to pick up on that - saying it had to be coming from nerve compression in the L4/L5 area before I even had an MRI. Dude knows his s--t, I'll never go anywhere else.

There's fitters and then there's fitters.


Mdeth, that sounds like an awesome find that you made with your fitter! I have had a fit done elsewhere but still have some unresolved aches and pains, and am unsure if they could be improved with further fit adjustments or if I just really need to do more PT off the bike to improve functionality on it. Your guy sounds like he has a good handle on biomechanics, so he might be ideally suited for determining what is the best route for me. I am located in CT, and see you are in Dutchess County NY. Could you tell me the name of your guy? Feel free to PM me if you prefer.
Last edited by TheKaiser on Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

McGilli
Posts: 373
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:57 pm

by McGilli

Ozrider wrote:I'm no longer "clawing" my toes and foot comfort is vastly improved


This is a fit issue? I'm curious because I've been doing this for a few years on My bike - which had a fit done by 'the' guy in our city that every cyclist swears by.

I've never thought of it as a fit issue... I'm going to pay more attention to this... glad you mentioned it...

Ozrider
Posts: 1018
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:06 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia

by Ozrider

@McGilli - definitely related to cleat position. Mine were positioned so the ball of the foot was directly over the pedal spindle.
This probably happened as I positioned my own cleats after buying a new pair of shoes (different brand to what ) With my recent fit they were moved so the ball of my foot is about 1cm in front of the spindle. (Size 48 shoes) It has really made a difference to comfort and efficiency on the bike
Ozrider - Western Australia
Parlee Z5 XL (6055g/13.32lbs) Trek Madone 5.9 (7052-7500g)Jonesman Columbus Spirit (8680g)
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