2016 Venge

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highdraw

by highdraw

ergott wrote:
highdraw wrote: Aero bikes don't have the same qualities as other race bikes. If what you said were true, there would only be aero bikes and bikes like the Tarmac and Roubaix would be discontinued and yet they dramatically outsell an aero bike like the Venge.


Perhaps Trek nailed it with the new Madone. That bike is supposed to have the comfort of the Domane with it's excellent aerodynamics.

Absolutely. I don't share the web hate for the new Madone...looks like Trek did a nice job in fact.
I look forward to more reviews on it and aero bike comparisons. For you guys who like an aero bike with decent ride, the Cervelo S3 is also a pretty good choice that won't break the bank.

LionelB
Posts: 1595
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:09 pm
Location: Aix en Provence

by LionelB

ergott wrote:
Yeah, but the only real reason you didn't like it was because it didn't have Campagnolo and some Boras on it. :mrgreen:

There is no doubt that Bora would have helped this poor bike immensely. These wheels were really terrible.

by Weenie


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BlackMadone
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:12 pm

by BlackMadone

LionelB wrote:
ergott wrote:
Yeah, but the only real reason you didn't like it was because it didn't have Campagnolo and some Boras on it. :mrgreen:

There is no doubt that Bora would have helped this poor bike immensely. These wheels were really terrible.

Really? I thought the wheels would be onecofcthe best things about it. Can you give us a full write up about it. I'm sure everyone would like to read it.

LionelB
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Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:09 pm
Location: Aix en Provence

by LionelB

BlackMadone wrote:Really? I thought the wheels would be onecofcthe best things about it. Can you give us a full write up about it. I'm sure everyone would like to read it.


Not sure about a full write up, I did 2 rides on the bike in 2 days. The bike is very difficult to get up to speed, it feels very heavy (it actually sort of it too :) ). It is a harsh ride, it is also a very loud ride (combination of wheels and frame noise). It handles fine but the braking is way below average on the setup I had. The wheels also caught little side wind a lot. The handlebar tops are pretty much unusable as they are super wide.

As everything was new to me on this bike I can say I hated the complete package. I am sure wheels contributed to it for quite a bit of it. After all these are heavy clincher wheels with whatever differentiated tires they sell with these.

Comparing my F8 to this I really cannot think of anything the F8 does not do a lot better than the Venge.

I am not a Specialized hater by any mean, I own a Crux and a Stumpy and think the Tarmac is a terrific frame.

YMMV.

nd2rc
Posts: 290
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:20 pm
Location: Tennessee

by nd2rc

Image

nd2rc
Posts: 290
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:20 pm
Location: Tennessee

by nd2rc

looks like there might have been a crankset swap, but yeah, it was a tarmac. Horses for courses ...

Image

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 6283
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

LionelB wrote:
ergott wrote:
Yeah, but the only real reason you didn't like it was because it didn't have Campagnolo and some Boras on it. :mrgreen:

There is no doubt that Bora would have helped this poor bike immensely. These wheels were really terrible.


Did you ride the bike with different wheels?
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

LionelB
Posts: 1595
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:09 pm
Location: Aix en Provence

by LionelB

wheelsONfire wrote:Did you ride the bike with different wheels?

Nope, I did not get a chance to do that.

BlackMadone
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:12 pm

by BlackMadone

LionelB wrote:
BlackMadone wrote:Really? I thought the wheels would be onecofcthe best things about it. Can you give us a full write up about it. I'm sure everyone would like to read it.


Not sure about a full write up, I did 2 rides on the bike in 2 days. The bike is very difficult to get up to speed, it feels very heavy (it actually sort of it too :) ). It is a harsh ride, it is also a very loud ride (combination of wheels and frame noise). It handles fine but the braking is way below average on the setup I had. The wheels also caught little side wind a lot. The handlebar tops are pretty much unusable as they are super wide.

As everything was new to me on this bike I can say I hated the complete package. I am sure wheels contributed to it for quite a bit of it. After all these are heavy clincher wheels with whatever differentiated tires they sell with these.

Comparing my F8 to this I really cannot think of anything the F8 does not do a lot better than the Venge.

I am not a Specialized hater by any mean, I own a Crux and a Stumpy and think the Tarmac is a terrific frame.

YMMV.
This is pretty much exactly what I expected...
Last edited by BlackMadone on Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

climber8
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:10 am

by climber8

I am an amateur racer who has ridden and raced the ViAS for more than a thousand miles, including a single race of 200 miles covered in 9 hours (no stops), and I've also logged tens of thousands of miles on Tarmacs, my "old" Venge and a Roubaix. I think that puts me in somewhat rare company for the moment.

I've been a bit busy to write up a full commentary, but the short version is that I have a VERY different take on the bike than the rider above. In fact, while it feels heavy when you lift it up in the parking lot (approximately 800g heavier than a comparable build for a Venge, and the Venge is roughly 150g heavier than a Tarmac), it has a very seductive ride quality to it.

Those who have ridden both Tarmac and Venge extensively may have found that the Venge required more rider input to track a tight line, particularly at high speeds. The ViAS handles comparably to my SL4, which is to say that handling is fantastic. Some people may prefer the handling of another bike to the SL4, but it is hard to find any fault with the SL4. So, for the ViAS to be mentioned in the same breathe as the Tarmac in terms of handling, as an aero bike, is a very big deal. I do not say this lightly.

Perhaps I will have time to write more impressions. It is not a perfect bike--I am not sure such a bike exists for all people and all scenarios. However, for now I will say that I have chosen to race the ViAS for every race I have entered since building it up, and I routinely choose to ride it over my training bike (which is an S-Works SL4). I think that speaks volumes.

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 6283
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Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

This is and should be considered a question, so i would like to ask you.

Don't you think an experience is somewhat clouded by expectations?
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

highdraw

by highdraw

wheelsONfire wrote:This is and should be considered a question, so i would like to ask you.

Don't you think an experience is somewhat clouded by expectations?

I will say what clouds the entire subject aside from personal bias and belief that a good machine maybe better than another...I say it is both conscious and subconscious. People are dramatically different in their perception based upon background as it turns out. Some are analytical like myself and some are purely aesthetic and kinesthetic. And some are a mixture of both. As to me, many may believe a guy like me would come down on the side of the argument that aero wins. Some analytics believe this and argue vociferously here. To me, they aren't true analytics however because they don't take into account the relationship of frame section modulus...what makes a bike aero versus how it affects the ride and stiffness of the bike which are diametrically opposed. In a blind test virtually ever single rider would prefer a non aero bike.
Lets take a single element of the new Venge....the new seat mast. Some here...probably a very limited few may even understand the tradeoffs considered when designing a proprietary aero post. Some with an engineering background know that a seat post for an aero bike is a huge conundrum. It is in fact a metaphor for virtually ever tube section and longitudinal shape that makes up an aero versus less aero bike. You see, to make a seat post less stiff aka introduce a modicum of compliance aka force/deflection while maintaining overall yield and bending strength, a designer needs more equivalency in terms of section modulus fore/aft and east/west as sitting on the bike. But that isn't what the wind wants. The wind wants a pencil width thin sharp edged front and long length fore/aft as that is what knifes the wind most effectively. So what is best for ride compliancy is the opposite of what is best for aerodynamics and this portends to many aspects of the frame sections on a bicycle including top and down tubes and rear triangle. So for designers it always comes down to a compromise for the best feel on a road bike versus what is most aero. If ever there is a manifestation of that, is it the earlier gen Cervelo S5. A bike designed for uncompromised aerodynamic performance in a wind tunnel and arguably one of the roughest riding road bicycles ever conceived. Of course there will be those that say they love the ride quality of the earlier S5...lol. Btw, Cervelo has knocked the new S bikes out of the park. Uncanny good ride quality for their level of aerodynamics. So this tradeoff is a huge dilemma for designs with all their FEA, stress analysis and virtual aerodynamic aka fluid computer modeling...aerodynamics being a subset of fluid mechanics. So I know that the seat post of a Venge for the same length is not going to have the same level of compliancy as say a FSA Kforce light 27.2mm round carbon 2 bolt post preferred by top racers in the pro peloton on a Tarmac which btw also has a superior seat post clamp to the one bolt Venge VIAS clamp.

So analytics if they really understand the full equation versus the misrepresented myopic view of the concept of 'data'...the mantra of the tunnel vision aero flat earthers...and have also been to engineering school and understand the concept of moment of inertial and differential section modulus and how aerodynamics are in direct opposition to these principles in terms of ride compliancy including deep section carbon wheels...then the line between wanting an aero bike versus all the other things that vastly contribute more to optimizing aerodynamics matter much more...like riding position, aero helmet, also with tradeoff to cooling benefit...skin suit...a knife edge aero handlebar which are both comfortable and ergonomic and aero wheels which can be put on any bike. The tradeoff for many including Peter Sagan in the worlds of riding the most slippery frame shape relative to the other qualities of a bike that propelled hm to victory which give it its 'overall' performance and comfort, feel and handling and punch on acceleration not to mention weight...these qualities trump a very minute if not indiscernible aero advantage of say a Venge over a Tarmac.

So yes, we each come from different walks and view things much differently. Some are a complete slave to fashion for example and will be seduced by the new VIAS and have to own one replete with tradeoffs and all. Others will think the bike is ugly. I think the stem and head tube are hideous for example but I do like that the cables are all routed through the stem but this sure will make it harder to change a single cable on the bike...best to change all cables at once for maintenance. And then there is rider weight, power, fitness and perhaps most important, what kind of roads we ride. For me, a strong recreational rider who pacelines on public roads at 20-30 mph depending on conditions, I prefer a Roubaix...a top of the line Roubaix with Campy but none the less a bike that can take the less than pristine road surfaces without beating me up as pulls are generally for no more than a mile or two. After 30 miles, I know this bike is fastest for me because it minimizes my fatigue and it rides appreciably different than both a Tarmac and a Venge. In other words, I know I am faster on what some may consider the slowest of all the race bikes Specialized makes and in fact allows me to ride more day to day which also makes me stronger.

So there are many factors and yes, each of us will have a very different view of what they want in a high performance road bike. To me the new Venge is a specialty bike. A bike for a very specific application which no doubt does its job well.
Last edited by highdraw on Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

sawyer
Posts: 4485
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Location: Natovi Landing

by sawyer

...and breathe ...

the weight and cost would rule it out for me vs the Canyon. It may well be a bit more
aero but probably marginal at anything other than very high speeds
----------------------------------------
Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!! :thumbup:

highdraw

by highdraw

sawyer wrote:...and breathe ...

the weight and cost would rule it out for me vs the Canyon. It may well be a bit more
aero but probably marginal at anything other than very high speeds

...and try to be more accurate...
Aero bikes are heavier than non aero bikes and aero benefit is marginal for all aero bikes relative to non aero race bikes or non aero race bikes wouldn't continue to win pro races.

Btw, I would be surprised if there were two other people on this forum other than myself who understood why aero bikes are heavier than non aero bikes for a given frame size.

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ergott
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by ergott

highdraw wrote:
Btw, I would be surprised if there were two other people on this forum other than myself who understood why aero bikes are heavier than non aero bikes for a given frame size.


That's a real crappy thing to say and if you really feel that way perhaps this site isn't good enough to have you around. :noidea:

This whole thread is about arguing minutia. Even though people are coming from extreme points of view on either side I don't think anyone here is seriously saying that you have to have x,y,z to win a race or that x,y,z will prevent you from winning. It's about whether or not there is a degree of advantage what the value of that advantage is to the given rider and circumstance.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

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