BB Design renders frame a throwaway?

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Calnago
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by Calnago

I'm going to try to get the frame warrantied because the situation will only get worse from here. This design is inexcusable.
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mimason
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by mimason

I was going to suggest this earlier. I think you have a valid warranty claim or at least some form of crash replacement coverage.

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kkibbler
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by kkibbler

Before we get to the BB mess, how sure are you that the creaking is coming from the BB and not the dropouts, cassette, pedals, chainring bolts, QRs, hubs, etc....

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

And even if there is wear that allows some minor play and therefore noise - would not grease keep it quiet for a good long time?

Trek BB90 is in a way the same thing - just bearings in an alloy sleeve, and grease seems to be all the Trek guys are using. Of course with the Trek system if you did have a problem you could use bearing retention compound and as you say still have access for removal with a tool.
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Calnago
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by Calnago

@kkibbler: I know that question should always be asked, so thanks. At this point, I'd say pretty sure, but I will throw another set of wheels on to make sure it's not coming from there. I've replaced chain, removed and greased pedals, chainring bolts, skewers, etc. One test I do is to just press sideways on the pedals from the side while holding the bike, both sides and listen for any creaking at the bottom bracket area. I realize this isn't a normal movement, but it's pretty good test to hear for anything going on down there that might just involve movement between shell and bearing interfaces apart from the spinning action of pedaling.

@Mr. Gib: Yes, it is very similar to the Trek BB90 in that the bearings are a slip fit into the shell of the frame. If the shell of the frame is off, there's nothing you can do. I have a Trek Emonda, but before getting it I looked very closely at their BB design. After a couple nightmare PF30 situations that I fixed, I did not want any hassles with a BB on one of my own bikes. The thing with Trek is that, at least on the Emonda I got, the current quality control of the BB seems to be very good. I took the micrometer to the faces where the Campy bearings would sit and measured every which way but Sunday. Very good. So I'm giving it a try. Also, it is carbon, verus relatively soft aluminum. As such I think it should wear better. Interesting that the Trek Campy BB design does not use the retaining C-clip at all on the drive side. And no issues so far. That whole C-clip on the drive side thing with Campy, while I would never omit it except in Trek's case where they don't use it at all, seems to be more of safety issue during install than anything. I know there are those that are adamant (including Graeme from Campy UK) that it prevents too much lateral movement, but if there's lateral movement at all, then the wavy washer is not doing it's job in my opinion. And lateral movement of the bearing like that will certainly cause wear on a shell such as this. But the shell was designed with Campy in mind, so I'm not going to hesitate trying for a warranty replacement. The wavy washer is there to take up the tolerances between imperfect shell widths (+/- 0.8mm). Perhaps Trek is confident enough in their Quality Control that they don't need to worry about their tolerances or excessive lateral movement and have decided that the C-clip is not needed on their frames with Campy Ultratorque. But I don't think a company as large as Trek would risk it if they were not confident that it was unnecessary, at least in their BB's. The adaptor kit they do provide seems to fit perfectly and precisely and I'm quite happy so far. Check back after a year or so of some crummy wet weather riding.

Next time I have the bike I'll pull it apart again and show you the innards of this BBshell. This particular BB is really a closer cousing to BB30 than Trek's BB90. Only difference really is the size of the shell that the bearings go into since it is for bearings with a 37mm outside diameter versus the 46mm outside diameter of the BB30 bearings. It really is a fine example of the inherent problems that began with BB30, which is largely gone now and replaced with PF30, which has it's own set of issues, although not quite as insurmountable with a proper install.

Also, re the grease the hell out of it and hope it stays quiet route. Well, that didn't work either. It's still moving and still clunking. And in any case, that is not a solution to the problem, but merely a temporary masking of it, and requires constant maintenance as you have to continually pull it out for a regreasing way more often than you should have to.
Oh, and using some bearing retention compound will not really work with the Campy cranks since the bearings are pressed onto the campy spindles, so regardless of the manufacturerer, Trek or Wilier, I'd still have the same problem that the bearings would be "glued" but I wouldn't be able to pull the crank to get at them. It would certainly be an option if it were a Shimano crank however.

But thanks all for your contributions. Bring back BSA!! :beerchug:
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kgt
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by kgt

I was riding this frame for 4,5 years (no problems for me). No, you cannot remove the alu integrated cups just like that. It seems the cups became loose for some reason. OTOH the wearing is maybe an indication of wrong installation of the crankset from the start.
Anyway I am afraid a carbon expert - metallurgist is needed in order to remove the cups (without destoying the bb) and replace 'em with a new, custom pair.

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Sjoerd
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by Sjoerd

Calnago wrote:Bring back BSA!! :beerchug:


Maybe this isn't the right topic to be asking these kind of questions but I'm going to anyway. I have a carbon BSA frame (actually, the cups are ITA) with a metal shell inside the carbon. If this shell is non-removable and it gets damaged, would I be facing the same problems as you?

Thanks and good luck with solving this problem. It sounds silly and frustrating!

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@kgt: the cups are not loose. And they are not separate "cups" as far as I can tell it looks like a BB shell fully enclosed in the carbon frame. That part is solid. But for some reason, the inner faces (where the bearings meet the shell) are worn enough to cause the creaking. Bearings needed replacing so I did that thinking that might be the problem. But it persisted. Nothing looked incorrect about the Ultratorque crank installation. Pretty hard to get it wrong it's so simple.
Did you have the very same frame? I would hate to think they all suffer this fate.
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Calnago
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by Calnago

@Sjoerd... Sounds like you have a frame with a bonded in shell and Italian threads, right? Not BSA which is threaded but with English threads. You are fine. When anyone refers to how BSA was better they're really referring to threaded versus pressfit or some variant. I presume, if you're running Campy, that you thread the Canpy cups into your shell and then install the crankset right? If that's the case then you are golden because even if you did have this problem and for some reason over time the surfaces of the cups where your bearings sit became damaged then all you have to do is replace the cups. $40. unscrew the old ones. Screw in the new ones. Reinsert crank. Done! Good as new.
What you do want to do with a threaded system is make sure you don't install it "dry". I generally use a copper based anti-seize compound on bottom bracket threads to prevent galling or just seizing up in foul weather. I saved one frame where the threaded bottom bracket had been installed dry and was just beginning to permanently bond itself to the shell.
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ras11
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by ras11

If I understand your situation, it does not seem all that different than aluminum frames with BB30 or many other frames with incerts. If "gluing" in the bearings is not an option, you could try something a little more time intensive. Assuming you know the frame bearing dimensions are only slightly oversized at this point, you could spray in some solvent borne epoxy marine coating. Let dry (hair drier if needed). Then back address the dimensions with a bore, or simply fine-grit sand until close. You can mask the frame and even the ring clip location of you are afraid of getting the epoxy coating everywhere. At the end of the day it's not as good as the original aluminum, but should suffice for a half dozen bearing replacements (~10yrs use). Who cares after that. The point is to resize the bearing cups with something. Keep in mind carbon bearing sleeves are epoxy also! So it's not that far fetched.
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bikerjulio
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by bikerjulio

Nothing looked incorrect about the Ultratorque crank installation.


except the lack of the retaining clip. :D
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Calnago
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by Calnago

@Bikerjulio: think I mentioned, it does in fact use the retaining clip as well and it was in place.
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bikedoc
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by bikedoc

None of the press fit bb's work, they all wear and start to creak. That's why company's like praxis made their bb's to try and solve this problem. ( it actually works really well)

Bogan
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by Bogan

Bloody hell. I thought the Italian bb on my bike was a PITA. I don't now.
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Sjoerd
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by Sjoerd

Calnago wrote:@Sjoerd... Sounds like you have a frame with a bonded in shell and Italian threads, right? Not BSA which is threaded but with English threads. You are fine. When anyone refers to how BSA was better they're really referring to threaded versus pressfit or some variant. I presume, if you're running Campy, that you thread the Canpy cups into your shell and then install the crankset right? If that's the case then you are golden because even if you did have this problem and for some reason over time the surfaces of the cups where your bearings sit became damaged then all you have to do is replace the cups. $40. unscrew the old ones. Screw in the new ones. Reinsert crank. Done! Good as new.
What you do want to do with a threaded system is make sure you don't install it "dry". I generally use a copper based anti-seize compound on bottom bracket threads to prevent galling or just seizing up in foul weather. I saved one frame where the threaded bottom bracket had been installed dry and was just beginning to permanently bond itself to the shell.


Thanks for the reply. I was thinking more of a case in which I damage the threads, or the shell starts to bond with the cups. I guess I would be screwed as well, but who wouldn't be? I ride a Colnago Extreme C with a Campagnolo Chorus 11 speed group btw.

I'll try to check if the cups (the only part of the bike I didn't install myself, together with the headset) went in dry on they added some anti-seize. I've bought the bike NOS a couple of months ago and it hasn't seen any rain, but I want to make sure I won't run into any trouble in the coming years.

Thanks!

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