BB Design renders frame a throwaway?

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Friend has a 2012(?) Wilier Cento1. Was complaining about a creaking BB so I offered to help out. First Wilier I've worked on but know a lot of the newer ones have pressfit BB's that I figured I could fix up one way or another. But this one incorporates a bonded-in alloy shell that essentially serves the purpose of the Campy BB cups. It is not replaceable or removeable as far as I can tell. It's running a Campy Chorus Ultratorque crank. Here's a pic of the bike...
Image
So, upon removing the crank it's clear that there are no pressfit cups to remove/replace, or replace with a better solution such as Praxis offers. I replaced the bearings on the crank, cleaned and greased up everything, but other than that there's not much more that can be done. And it still creaks. The outer surface of the bearings were pretty dry upon removal and I could see where it was wearing on the alloy shell. And therein lies a major issue with these types of BB's. If wear does occur (and the aluminum shell is a lot softer material than the steel bearings), then there isn't much you can do to fix it.

Seems at this point, it's a "you just have to live with it" situation. Any other Wilier owners out there with this type of BB that have had similar issues? Any fixes? I can't think of any.
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kode54
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by kode54

did you use Loctite 609? PF30?
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Synnove
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by Synnove

If the shell does need replacing, I'm sure there is a carbon repair specialist who could accomplish that (would be costly of course).

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Calnago
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by Calnago

No, that's the point... it's not PF30. The "cups" are part of the bottom bracket shell which is part of the frame. If it still creaked that's exactly what I was going to try to do (use 609 + primer) on the interface between the outer bearings and the shell, but the bearings are pressed on to the Campy crank, which would make future access for removal next to impossible. Unlike Shimano for example, where the bearings could be loctited in the shell separately from the crank spindle. Then to remove you could still take the crank out and have access to the bearings for removal with a tool, or heat.
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Calnago
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by Calnago

@Synnove: The aluminium BB shell is bonded into the carbon frame. Unlike most carbon shells these days which are all carbon and just get a pressfit cup to slide in.
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Synnove
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by Synnove

I figured, but even so, there are carbon repair companies who have experience dealing with bonded bottom brackets; I'm sure they'd have an idea of what could be done.

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bikerjulio
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by bikerjulio

From what I can find that's a BB386 EVO BB design, so I'm curious. How was a UT crankset made to work?

Surely the frame is not specific to Campy, is it?
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

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wingguy
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by wingguy

From what I can find that's a BB386 EVO BB design, so I'm curious. How was a UT crankset made to work?


A) No it isn't, it's pre-BB386, so should be PF86

B) UT is perfectly compatible with BB386Evo, just need the right cups.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

It's none of the above. Wilier called it BB93. Lol.
The shell is aluminum and is bonded directly into the carbon frame. It's like BB30 except the inner diameter of the shell is 37mm, so you can fit a campy Ultratorque directly into it, no need for any cups or adapters. And no, it is not "specific" to Campy. A shimano crank could fit in there as well. The outside diameter of shimanos BB bearings are the same at 37mm (or 36.98-36.99 to be more precise). I suppose they thought it was a good idea at the time but as I keep citing as one of the reasons these designs are so crap is that if wear does occur like this, you're screwed.
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bikerjulio
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by bikerjulio

OK I got it.

I have a BMC SLC01 where the threaded alloy sleeve that was bonded in the BB area became loose and would rock visibly up and down although firmly held in the middle.

In my case I took drastic measures, and rather than scrap the frame, I drilled a series of holes around the sleeve on both sides and injected epoxy cement. Although I faced some disbelief at the time, the frame has been solid for at least three years now.

I believe the pro method is similar to this. Or just scrap the frame.
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

eric
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by eric

Use Loctite 609, with primer. This problem (a loose light press fit) is exactly what is made for.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@eric: Arggh... yes, that's what I do for pressfit (609, primer etc), but as stated above, this is not a pressfit BB.
Last edited by Calnago on Tue May 26, 2015 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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Calnago
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by Calnago

@BikerJulio... thanks, but in your case it sounds like the bond between the BB shell and the frame itself came loose, so kudos to you for fixing it. In this case, the bond of the shell to the frame is fine, but with wear it seems the inside face of the alloy shell (aluminum) has worn enough for the movement between it and the bearings has become a bit sloppy. It's still rideable, but that noise would have me throwing it in the bin. Just a very bad design, unless you're designing disposable frames, which way too many seem to be doing these days.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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bikerjulio
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by bikerjulio

OK got it finally.

Even though the diameter might have been OK for a Campy bearing, since there is no place to put the retaining clip, the crankset would have had to be carefully shimmed to prevent lateral movement. If this was not done, by removing the wave washer and shimming to prevent movement, then the constant side-to-side movement of an UT crank with it's fixed bearings, would have created this exact problem.

I can only think that just maybe the right combination of Loctite on the outside of the bearing and a perfect stack of shims might make this bearable.

Otherwise...............
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

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Calnago
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by Calnago

My fallback solution was going to be loctite 609 and 7649 primer on just the outside of the bearing and inside of the shell, but as I mentioned earlier, that would make removal extremely difficult since the campy bearings are pressed onto the spindle, unlike shimano which would allow removal of the crank giving access to the bearings when you eventually have to replace them.
And it still uses the campy wavy washer and the retaining clip although that is very loosy goosy as well.
Last edited by Calnago on Wed May 27, 2015 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

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