Aero Road Bikes are BS

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BeeSeeBee
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by BeeSeeBee

^ Exactly, they have, which is why we can't say for certain why some climbers/GC guys opt not to use them. Still, looking at what the pros do is entirely a logical fallacy, so I'm not sure why anyone is continuing down that line of reasoning.

Lieblingsleguan
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by Lieblingsleguan

kgt wrote:Tests have 'proven' that aero is 'faster' even in the bunch, even uphill, everywhere... And Venge is not that heavy in comparison to sworks.
Of course we are discussing road racing and not TT stages.

TT was just to point out that they are not against aero benefits per se. However, weight, stiffness and handling are more important for GC riders as they need to gain time in the mountains. Aero is faster as long as all other parameters are unchanged.
Of course, aero is also faster in the bunch, but that doesn't matter if you are way below threshold there.

Other riders use different frames depending on the terrain. Sagan uses a Venge in flat races and a Tarmac in hilly races.

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kgt
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by kgt

Lieblingsleguan wrote:However, weight, stiffness and handling are more important for GC riders as they need to gain time in the mountains.

I agree. In other words a non aero frame can be faster in certain cases.

Lieblingsleguan wrote:Aero is faster as long as all other parameters are unchanged.

In theory. In practice that "as long as all other parameters are unchanged" does not exist.

Lieblingsleguan wrote:Other riders use different frames depending on the terrain. Sagan uses a Venge in flat races and a Tarmac in hilly races.

So the theory that "aero is faster in hilly races also" is not true in practice. The answer, again, is it depends.

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LeDuke
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by LeDuke

Lieblingsleguan wrote:
kgt wrote:So facts, science, field testing, chung method, wind tunnels etc. have already proved that aero actually matters but Contador, Landa Meana and Aru stil ride an sworks and not a Venge... An explanation for that?
The usual answer is that these riders and their teams are stubborn, traditionalists, retarded or scientifically illiterate. Any other (serious) answer?

GC riders spend flat days protected in the bunch, where an aero bike doesn't matter. The only times they are on their own is either uphill, where they need maximum stiffness and a bike very close to the weight limit (Venge is super heavy and for a rather tall rider like Aru would be around 7.3kg), or downhill where they need the best handling.
When doing TTs, they take every little aero gain as well.


If "aero doesn't matter", why are people pedaling their bikes at all while drafting?

Rolling resistance only accounts for so much. I've been in races where I've been mid-pack, putting out 300w just to hold the wheel in front of me. If "aero doesn't matter", how can this be the case?

Lieblingsleguan
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by Lieblingsleguan

LeDuke wrote:
Lieblingsleguan wrote:
kgt wrote:So facts, science, field testing, chung method, wind tunnels etc. have already proved that aero actually matters but Contador, Landa Meana and Aru stil ride an sworks and not a Venge... An explanation for that?
The usual answer is that these riders and their teams are stubborn, traditionalists, retarded or scientifically illiterate. Any other (serious) answer?

GC riders spend flat days protected in the bunch, where an aero bike doesn't matter. The only times they are on their own is either uphill, where they need maximum stiffness and a bike very close to the weight limit (Venge is super heavy and for a rather tall rider like Aru would be around 7.3kg), or downhill where they need the best handling.
When doing TTs, they take every little aero gain as well.


If "aero doesn't matter", why are people pedaling their bikes at all while drafting?

Rolling resistance only accounts for so much. I've been in races where I've been mid-pack, putting out 300w just to hold the wheel in front of me. If "aero doesn't matter", how can this be the case?

I didn't negate that there is a difference. But the best allround package for a GC rider is usually a stiff, light climbing bike. Even better is a stiff, light climbing bike with some aero advantages, like a Scott Addict or a Cervelo R5. Other companies are likely to go that way as has Merida now.
It was simply asked for serious answers for why the GC favorites in the ongoing Giro d'Italia are not on aero frames and I tried to provide one.

Also, there is a difference between flat, hard ridden one day races and grand tours, where, on a flat day, a break formes and the racing in the bunch usually isn't excessively hard. In a grand tour, if you have difficulties to hold the wheel of your teammates on a flat section and have to go anaerobic, how are you supposed to win that thing?

Looking at hard ridden one day races: Tour of Flanders winner Alexander Kristoff won on a Canyon Aeroad while runner up Niki Terpstra used a Venge. This is a race where a lot of teams use similar setups than for Paris Roubaix because of the cobbled sections. However, the aero options seemed to be the right choice this year.

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LeDuke
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by LeDuke

The point is that, instead of pedaling at 300w, they are at 290w.

That's energy saved, for free. That adds up. Particularly over 3 weeks. Marginal gains.

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Lieblingsleguan
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by Lieblingsleguan

LeDuke wrote:The point is that, instead of pedaling at 300w, they are at 290w.

That's energy saved, for free. That adds up. Particularly over 3 weeks. Marginal gains.

Sure, but there are marginal gains and marginal disadvantages that have to be weighed.

For a Rider around 180cm, a full aero setup (incl. Di2, powermeter, computer, 60mm wheels, aero handlebar,...) will be between 6.95 and 7.2 kg. So, having a 6.8kg bike is a marginal gain on mountain stages. Also, there is the issue of crosswinds on descents and lower stiffness of aero bikes compared to a bike optimized for stiffness to weight. And, aero bikes tend to be less comfortable - might be an issue in a three week long race.

I think, teams usually carry three bikes per rider on grand tours, that is a race bike, a spare bike and a TT bike. Therefore, they don't change to aero frames on flat stages. Riders that spent a lot of time in breakaways, sprinters and domestiques reeling in the breaks go for the aero option more often.

New and better aero frames will likely see more action in the future similar to the new aero wheelsets that are more stable in crosswinds and are therefore ridden more often in mountain stages. The old S5 for example was critizised for low headset stiffness, so a lot of Garmin riders used the S3. Now, I see a lot of MTN riders using the new and supposedly better S5.

drchull
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by drchull

I think you absolutely nailed the reasoning that GC riders often avoid aero bikes on mountain stages. Same reason you often see a lot shallower wheels in the mountains in the 6.8kg world. The perception that they are going to be more predictable on the descents particularly in swirling winds. Also some people like a little more head tube when doing a lot of climbing.

Protected riders almost never see the front of the peloton if it isn't going up some ridiculous grade and so comfort and predictability really seems most important to these guys.

drchull
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by drchull

Oh and of course the most important factor for the pro rider, you ride what they pay you to ride. If they say Alberto I want you to ride this Venge today he says okay, yes boss.

tranzformer
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by tranzformer

drchull wrote:Oh and of course the most important factor for the pro rider, you ride what they pay you to ride. If they say Alberto I want you to ride this Venge today he says okay, yes boss.


That actually isn't always true. Countless examples of riders riding Parlee frame or Cervelo TT frame or Hed tri spoke badged as another sponsors bike. Depends on what a riders team contract says as well as other sponsorship deals the rider might have.

wingguy
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by wingguy

drchull wrote:Oh and of course the most important factor for the pro rider, you ride what they pay you to ride. If they say Alberto I want you to ride this Venge today he says okay, yes boss.


I think that's a lot less true for the top riders than it is for the rank and file. If you're paying a guy a couple million euros a year for results you want to make sure he's as happy as possible and has as few excuses as possible come race day.

So they say 'Hey Alberto you know the Venge should be faster on today's stage?' He says, 'No, I feel better on the Tarmac.' They say 'Ok Bertie, whatever you want.'

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by fromtrektocolnago

2.5 minutes over 100k? Is this what we're talking about?

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ergott
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by ergott

tranzformer wrote: Countless examples of riders riding Parlee frame or Cervelo TT frame or Hed tri spoke badged as another sponsors bike. Depends on what a riders team contract says as well as other sponsorship deals the rider might have.


That was about 10 years ago. There are far fewer exceptions anymore.

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kgt
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by kgt

winguy is right.
It is impressive how much speculation there is on the benefits of an aero frame while at the same time pro riders are crystal clear: "I am faster on the frame I am feeling better riding". Why is it that hard to accept this simple fact?

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