No Cipollini RB1000k in the Milano-Sanremo

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zappafile123
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by zappafile123

kgt wrote:Liggero has never ridden one and I bet he has never seen one up close. But as in any forum you can read anything really.
Still after many raving reviews and positive feedback some people want to live in their own world. No problem.


I guess I'm just trying to be charitable. Its pretty obvious that you cannot discern either the type, combination of types or combination of layers of carbon fibre that constitute a frames 'engineering' just by looking at it. I stuns me that people are trying to say a bike is shit when they havent even ridden it. Its simply negative brand bias and amounts to bigotry.

I bet anyone $100 that an RB1000 is bloody stiff (in absolute terms). Just give me one to try out... Im in Canberra... or Sydney :wink:
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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

I wonder when frames crack, it would be interesting to have a fact based answer on what makes them do so.
If a frame is told to be tested mechanically to handle all sorts of abuse and still it cracks several times, there must be some reason.
Coincidence or claims of wrong doing by end users is not likely. If so, the frame seems not engineered for what it really is told to do!?
I wonder if resin and/ or paint can have different levels of stiffness making either crack?
Techincally, i guess there are very few of us who really have the know how to answer this?
Opinions, ideas aso, is really no fact based answer.
Thinking of it, there are internal layers and external layers of carbon, i assume there is stress/ energy transfer all the time in the frame.
Just riding a bike and putting a finger on any tube, it is easy to feel vibrations running around.
But how i wonder, can some brands crack and some not, be it they are thinner or thicker?
To me, it seems a frame with lots of layers is more complex and could actually crack easier if something doesn't match up in layup.

I am not just thinking of Cipo, there surely are more frames with issues.
Subjective opinions and ideas is not fact based really.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

5 8 5
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by 5 8 5

tranzformer wrote:It is a shame, that for the weighing almost 50% more than the Basso, the Cippollini only manages around 20% stiffer at the BB while at the same time is less stiff at the heat tube with the Basso being 29% stiffer there.

I thought that just relying on high stiffness numbers had been debunked?

5 8 5
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by 5 8 5

Has it been confirmed that this RB1000k is a genuine Cipollini?

I'm having a hard time getting my head around this. There is something seriously amiss to get rub like this.

There must have been major rub on the brake calliper first. I presume it was opened up.

I can't believe someone would carry on racing the bike with that much rub! The noise, the smell , the lost watts , the chance of a puncture.....

too crusty
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by too crusty

5 8 5 wrote:Has it been confirmed that this RB1000k is a genuine Cipollini?

I'm having a hard time getting my head around this. There is something seriously amiss to get rub like this.

There must have been major rub on the brake calliper first. I presume it was opened up.

I can't believe someone would carry on racing the bike with that much rub! The noise, the smell , the lost watts , the chance of a puncture.....


I couldn't agree more. I personally think there is more to this. I have two friends on Cipo's (Bond's) and I've ridden them and that bike is stiff in the rear end...period. I was actually amazed at how stiff/efficient each pedal stroke was......even way more so than my Canyon. I can't even imagine how stiff the 1000 would be. (FYI I'm 200lbs so I'm pretty sure I would feel any flex and that bike had none-at least in the rear end).

My personal internet opinion would be that seems like skewer got loose or the wheels/spokes flexed.

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PSM
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by PSM

Can a frame flex so much that the tyre rubbs the chainstay near the BB? It must be the wheels...

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kgt
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by kgt

arthurf wrote:Not everyone is going to agree that Cipollini are the best frames in the world and you have to accept that rather than just belligerently tell them they are an idiot.

Where did I write Cipollini are the 'best frames in the world'? Where did I call someone 'an idiot'? Please...

arthurf wrote:Some of the information presented above is quite relevant and the posters seem to have more knowledge of engineering and composites than you do but you just accuse them of stupidity because their knowledge doesn't reflect how you feel about Cipollini.

Let me claim some engineering knowledge as I am an engineer. In contrast my impression is that some members have absolutely no knowledge of construction and materials.
Now, I have presented very positive tests by serious websites. It seems you pass em by for some reason. But you can search yourself if you wish. Many tests online and offline from magazines all over the world. I have never find, not even one, review that does not admit that Cipollini frames are really special machines.

arthurf wrote:We are all naturally biased towards our bike being the best [...] Do I start shooting people down when they say it's stiff and uncomfortable? No.

Again: where did I write Cipollini frames are comfortable? In fact I have written in other threads that RB1000 is so stiff it can be tiring (even some pros find it too aggressive) and that was the main reason I got the BOND which is more comfortable (but still not that comfortable in comparison to my Cento Uno).

arthurf wrote:I disagree with the "many raving reviews" statement you make. For a company that was launched in 2010, there are comparatively few reviews when compared with bikes launched around the same time such as the Venge and the Foil. I agree that most of those reviews give the bikes glowing feedback but that is usually on the back of a weeks testing rather than living with it for several years.

You have not searched obviously because you can find several. Of course Specialized or Scott or Canyon have more reviews. Big guys-big market shares-many reviews. OTOH there are few De Rosa or Sarto or Colnago or Parlee or... reviews. Does that make them inferior frames?

arthurf wrote:Again, there is little feedback from owners as they are very rare bikes but there are several cases of owners having problems with QC and warranties and Cipollini failing to deal with them. I know of several shops in the UK that will not deal with Cipollini for precisely this reason.

Cipollini after sales may suck. In my experience this is not the case certainly. I may be lucky. But, tell me, what about the hundreds of Scott frames breaking (I have seen one cracking in front of my eyes btw)? Did it matter for your choise? It seems you ride one and you like it. Good for you.

At the end I have ridden both Scott and Cipollini frames. Have tried both? Obviously not.

Ahillock
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by Ahillock

So what's up with the lack of stiffness at the head tube?

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maverick_1
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by maverick_1

Here are some deflection data of some well known framesets from various manufacturers.
Feel free to make your own conclusion :thumbup:

Cheers!

RB1K, BMC TMR, Giant Propel, TIME ZXRS, Cannondale Slice, Trek Emonda, Colnago C60.

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PSM
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by PSM

Cipo is like over cocked pasta!

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kgt
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by kgt

You mean Propel...

Anyway I still find this lab tests misguiding. Interesting comment on how to interpret these numbers from RIDE magazine guys themselves:

"The difference between the CAAD10′s bottom bracket of 0.58mm and the MCipollini RB1000 of 0.27mm from the latest edition of RIDE is really very small. The most relevant aspect – in my opinion – of the jig test is the correlation between the numbers and not just the raw data. The CAAD10 for example is balanced across the three points of measurement: bottom bracket, head tube and seat tube is 0.58, 0.45 and 0.57mm [RB1000 is .27 .31 .31] respectively and the bike performed in this fashion in it’s real test."
and
"The test jig measures deflection of three frame points under a load applied via the crank arm. Basically, because it is a static test, it’s a ‘snapshot’ of how stiff the frame is. It is also an empirical test, ie. measurements gained from our jig tests are comparable only to each other. For instance, if the bottom bracket on bike ‘A’ deflects greater than bike ‘B’, we can only say that ‘A’ deflects more than ‘B’. We cannot say outright that ‘A’ will be any less stiff to ride than bike ‘B’ because frame dynamics are not accounted for."

You can find more of this stuff online. You can even pay(!) in order to download 'em although the people doing these tests admit there is not any serious conclusions to be made...

http://www.ridemedia.com.au/past-issue/ ... explained/

5 8 5
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by 5 8 5

PSM wrote:Can a frame flex so much that the tyre rubbs the chainstay near the BB? It must be the wheels...

Rubbing the chainstay would make more sense (wheel out of alignment, broken spoke(s), wheel not fully inserted in) the dropouts)
but have a look at the pic - the rubbing is on the seatstay.

jano
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by jano

kgt wrote:@ jano
A common sense question again: What makes you think that Cipollini engineers and/or technicians cannot or do not "lay the CF in the right direction" neither "cure it using the right pressure and temperature"? I really ask for a logical answer because I cannot think of one.


Because it is not that simple and really good and knowledgeable composite material specialists aren't as easy to find as one would like.
This is not as simple as calculating the stiffness of a metal alloy tube or frame, it is quite complex and there are still several different ways to model and calculate mechanical properties of a composite structure.
As for getting the fabrication process wrong, that is way easier then one might think, and mistakes happen all the time even in more advanced high tech environments where CF is used for longer then in biking (hint F1).

arthurf
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by arthurf

kgt wrote:
arthurf wrote:Not everyone is going to agree that Cipollini are the best frames in the world and you have to accept that rather than just belligerently tell them they are an idiot.

Where did I write Cipollini are the 'best frames in the world'? Where did I call someone 'an idiot'? Please...


It is your attitude towards people that post anything negative or that doesn't agree with your impression of Cipollini. You seem to take their comments personally and infer that it is the rider that doesn't understand the bike rather than people just having different opinions.

arthurf wrote:Some of the information presented above is quite relevant and the posters seem to have more knowledge of engineering and composites than you do but you just accuse them of stupidity because their knowledge doesn't reflect how you feel about Cipollini.

Let me claim some engineering knowledge as I am an engineer. In contrast my impression is that some members have absolutely no knowledge of construction and materials.
Now, I have presented very positive tests by serious websites. It seems you pass em by for some reason. But you can search yourself if you wish. Many tests online and offline from magazines all over the world. I have never find, not even one, review that does not admit that Cipollini frames are really special machines.

No, they say that they are what they expect of a top end race bike, not that they are special or groundbreaking in the way that a something like a Factor Vis Vires is. I agree that most reviews of Cipollini bikes are positive but no more so than any top flight bikes from the big manufacturers.

arthurf wrote:We are all naturally biased towards our bike being the best [...] Do I start shooting people down when they say it's stiff and uncomfortable? No.

Again: where did I write Cipollini frames are comfortable? In fact I have written in other threads that RB1000 is so stiff it can be tiring (even some pros find it too aggressive) and that was the main reason I got the BOND which is more comfortable (but still not that comfortable in comparison to my Cento Uno).

No, you miss the point,this remark was not about the comfort of Cipollini frames. I know that the Foil has plenty of faults and I'm willing to accept that and I know that not everyone will like the look or ride of them but it's horses for courses. You on the other hand cannot accept that some people may not agree that Cipollinis are good looking, or light, or stiff but you have to accept that rather than bloody mindedly arguing that they are wrong.

arthurf wrote:I disagree with the "many raving reviews" statement you make. For a company that was launched in 2010, there are comparatively few reviews when compared with bikes launched around the same time such as the Venge and the Foil. I agree that most of those reviews give the bikes glowing feedback but that is usually on the back of a weeks testing rather than living with it for several years.

You have not searched obviously because you can find several. Of course Specialized or Scott or Canyon have more reviews. Big guys-big market shares-many reviews. OTOH there are few De Rosa or Sarto or Colnago or Parlee or... reviews. Does that make them inferior frames?

Wrong again. You claimed that there were loads of reviews of Cipollini frames and from the owners, I merely made the point that there weren't. I spent long enough looking before I bought my RB800. I never claimed that Cipollini were an inferior frame, only that the few reviews that there are are based on a week or two magazine testing and aren't long term.

arthurf wrote:Again, there is little feedback from owners as they are very rare bikes but there are several cases of owners having problems with QC and warranties and Cipollini failing to deal with them. I know of several shops in the UK that will not deal with Cipollini for precisely this reason.

Cipollini after sales may suck. In my experience this is not the case certainly. I may be lucky. But, tell me, what about the hundreds of Scott frames breaking (I have seen one cracking in front of my eyes btw)? Did it matter for your choise? It seems you ride one and you like it. Good for you.

At the end I have ridden both Scott and Cipollini frames. Have tried both? Obviously not.[/quote]

Actually, I have owned both and I know which one I wouldn't buy again. And there aren't records of hundreds of Scott frames breaking but I have certainly read reports of them breaking. The Foil had a well known issue with the seat post when first launched but Scott warrantied all of the frames. Scott have an excellent reputation for their customer service which is more than can be said for Cipollini. I wouldn't be concerned about my Scott breaking as I have the confidence that Scott will honour their warranty and deal with it in an appropriate and timely manner.

This is all I have to say on the matter Kgt and I won't be responding to any further comments you make.

Any by the way Cipollini owners, I believe that Cipollini have issued a recall for all forks due to to a potential issue with them cracking at the steerer tube.

FilmAt11
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by FilmAt11

arthurf wrote:Any by the way Cipollini owners, I believe that Cipollini have issued a recall for all forks due to to a potential issue with them cracking at the steerer tube.


Where did you see the fork recall? Link please.

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