No Cipollini RB1000k in the Milano-Sanremo

[tranzformer]

STW does matter as I already outlined above. Yes you need to take into account absolute stiffness as well, but STW definitely matters. Might not to you. It shows the "efficiency" of the maker in terms of carbon use and layup. Sure make a 2,300 kg frame that has 150 N/mm because your frame weighs over double the weight of other frames. Or you could find a sub 1000g frame that provides 85-90% of that same stiffness (more than enough stiffness) at a huge weight reduction.

Also, at what point is stiffness enough? 90 N/mm? 100 N/mm? 120 N/mm? Is more stiffness ever enough?

Also kgt, funny how you are willing to accept the data above for the BB a stiffness, but won't accept the lack of head tube stiffness compared to the other three. It is either all or none. Can't cherry pick which stiffness numbers you want to accept.

[kgt]

I don't really care... I never presented numbers and data, you did. I just said I agree. I prefer to trust my experience as well as have the feedback from riders I respect:
"The massive full-width box section downtube creates one of the stiffest bottom bracket junctions I’ve ever ridden – and it’s awesome! It matches volume with the large seat tube bottom and tall chainstay cross section to form a structure built to withstand as much torsional energy as you can throw at it. It works as this is one of the stiffest bottom end’s I have ever ridden"
and
"Mate that geometry to a solid fork and you have handling that might best be described as “immediate”. Thankfully the frame’s stiffness, both front and rear are exactly what the doctor ordered as a weaker/ more flexible bike might tend to be overwhelmed by the forces you can generate with a steeper, more front loaded handling package."
from
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/tech-n-sp ... U-FtpOlPIU

You may trust some stiffness numbers on a magazine more. I choose to trust guys like Matt McNamara. Maybe after 25 years of riding bikes I am just old fashioned.

[jano]

It is also impressive on how some guys need 'data' but cannot even use their common sense. You have a frame made with Toray's 1000.m46J. This frame is a one-piece monocoque, has huge tubes, tapered headset-fork, BB386 bb and weights around 1300gr. It's just impossible for this frame not to be stiff.

Well, you are wrong. And while the common sense that you use, and quote, is valid for a metal alloy frame, it does not apply like that to a CF frame.
You can use the best CF available out there, you can use loads of it (lots of layers), make oversized monocoque and tubes and BB and tapered forks and whatnot, however as long as you do not lay the CF in the right direction for each of the layers, if you do not cure it using the right pressure and temperature you will only produce an oversized and heavy noodle, it's just as simple. In fact it is easier to produce a heavy CF noodle than a great CF frame with excellent riding properties.
Long story short, while I am sure this frame is good, your claim that with the ingredients you listed a frame can not be flexy is wrong.

[stormp]

Its kronrørsstivhed, and that is headtube stiffness

[wheelsONfire]

Well, atleast Cipo offer 10 year warranty and after all... no-one needs to buy it if they don't want it!

[kgt]

@ jano
A common sense question again: What makes you think that Cipollini engineers and/or technicians cannot or do not "lay the CF in the right direction" neither "cure it using the right pressure and temperature"? I really ask for a logical answer because I cannot think of one.

[Ahillock]

@ jano
A common sense question again: What makes you think that Cipollini engineers and/or technicians cannot or do not "lay the CF in the right direction" neither "cure it using the right pressure and temperature"? I really ask for a logical answer because I cannot think of one.

Maybe because their layup only results in about 17% stiffer BB at the cost of 440g of carbon fiber and at the loss of 23% stiffness at the front end.

[HammerTime2]

Early last year, I used the webform on the Cipo (Italy) website to ask a couple of question about the R800. I never received a reply except for the auto-reply saying my inquiry had been received. I resubmitted a few weeks later, and then a few weeks later. No reply except for auto-reply. This did not engender confidence in me that I would receive good after-sales or warranty support if needed. They may be great bikes, but I'll probably never find out. I can just imagine how smoothly warranty support would work out.

Paisan, this bike is designed to be ridden by riders with the pinache of Mario. You don't have it. Claim rejected."

Well, atleast Cipo offer 10 year warranty and after all... no-one needs to buy it if they don't want it!

[wheelsONfire]

^^^

I have no idea of how Cipo work with customers. From what it seems, it is much to be asked for. I merely looked at the stated warranty of 10 years.
How companies imply these are another thing entirely. As far as what i have read around, it seems many companies are rather bad.
Worst of all is that nothing of such is learnt untill the day come when we ask for warranty or help of some sort.
But a rude ass comment as suggested above, uh, that is rotten to the core. No way of treating a customer.
In these sore times i think i would try to sort business instead of behaving bad towards customers.
Not all that pay premium prices do really have premium wages, but passion and interest make some of us sacrifice other things.

[Liggero]

Nice post zappafile123.
I think the reason some people are ''allergic'' to Cipollini is not the frame but Mario himself. Colnago, Pinarello, hi end titanium or steel frame is also expensive and heavy but the comments are not that biased. Mario's personality or style irritates certain people for some reason...

It is also impressive on how some guys need 'data' but cannot even use their common sense. You have a frame made with Toray's 1000.m46J. This frame is a one-piece monocoque, has huge tubes, tapered headset-fork, BB386 bb and weights around 1300gr. It's just impossible for this frame not to be stiff.

Anything can be stiff. The bikes of 100€ in hi-ten steel are uber stiff. Stiffness to weight is the key. Stiffness alone means very little.

Cipo frames don't need to be tested, you don't even need to put a leg over them to see how wrong they are from an engineering point of view. They are insultingly wrong. They are obviusly under-engineered. They look worse than 90% of the chinese open mold frames, but then with graphics that are way uglier than the naked carbon of chinese open mold frames. Actually, I don't know what else they can do to make them worse. I mean, any build made with a cipo frame can go straight to the freaks thread. any. In my opinion, of course.

I´m sure some people love them, and they have tested them and they love them. Sure. Also some people love american hollywood movies, mc donalds, britney spears and kim kardasian... And you know what? britney spears mucis is shit, no matter how many people love it or buy it. Same with Cipo frames ;-D

[jimaizumi]

Come to think of it, when was the last time we heard the word "noodle" being used to describe a frame? Its clear that this particular industry is getting something right with the advancements in composite technology while the concept of "design" will always be something debateable. Any issues that users incur individually, is usually related to specific faults on a production level and is not representative of the model or brand as a whole.

wheelsONfire has a good point with poor customer service but then again, which mass manufactured frame company has a pristine record? Those who are unfortunate to have come across a "single" bad experience will tend to use that opportunity to napalm the living hell out of the company... Of course, its that one bad experience that will keep us from ever buying that brand ever again. Gentlemen, we are all subject to the same ugly treatment..Otherwise, we'd all be returning frames for whatever small reason we can find...

Just my 2c.

[tranzformer]

I don't really care... I never presented numbers and data, you did. I just said I agree. I prefer to trust my experience as well as have the feedback from riders I respect:

I didn't present any data. Mario Jr. mentioned the testing done by a Danish bike magazine. 53x12 posted the chart. I was just discussing it and analyzing it. That is fine that you want to trust the opinion over other riders. But the testing doesn't support your opinion 100%. The absolute stiffness in the bottom bracket is higher than the other 3 bikes being tested by an average of around 17%. But it is less stiff than the other 3 at the head tube by around 23-24%. Not to mention the STW where it gets crushed.

Also, don't forget that whole concept of perception vs. reality that has been discussed several times on this thread. Many times our opinions are already formed about a bike before we ride it either because of reviews we have heard from other riders, or by looking at the frame and judging what we expect the frame to behave like. Do a blind test, and those pre-conceived perceptions go away.

It is a shame, that for the weighing almost 50% more than the Basso, the Cippollini only manages around 20% stiffer at the BB while at the same time is less stiff at the heat tube with the Basso being 29% stiffer there.

[zappafile123]

Cipo frames don't need to be tested, you don't even need to put a leg over them to see how wrong they are from an engineering point of view. They are insultingly wrong. They are obviusly under-engineered.

Liggero, can you please elaborate on this point? What do you think is obviously under-engineered? I do think the RB800 is a very good looking bike however and its not obvious to me how its overtly 'under-engineered'. How can you tell by looking at the outside of a bike?

I have no opinion on whether cippo's are good or not, I havent ridden one.

[kgt]

Liggero has never ridden one and I bet he has never seen one up close. But as in any forum you can read anything really.
Still after many raving reviews and positive feedback some people want to live in their own world. No problem.

[arthurf]

Liggero has never ridden one and I bet he has never seen one up close. But as in any forum you can read anything really.
Still after many raving reviews and positive feedback some people want to live in their own world. No problem.

Kgt, I have purposely avoided commenting on this thread as I have made my views on Cipollini perfectly clear elsewhere but I find your attitude towards anyone that dare put down a Cipollini tiring and childish. Not everyone is going to agree that Cipollini are the best frames in the world and you have to accept that rather than just belligerently tell them they are an idiot. Some of the information presented above is quite relevant and the posters seem to have more knowledge of engineering and composites than you do but you just accuse them of stupidity because their knowledge doesn't reflect how you feel about Cipollini.

We are all naturally biased towards our bike being the best. I love my Foil but I appreciate that it is a very firm ride that a lot of people won't like and will find uncomfortable and this is a feature that is regularly reflected in any review of it. Do I start shooting people down when they say it's stiff and uncomfortable? No.

I disagree with the "many raving reviews" statement you make. For a company that was launched in 2010, there are comparatively few reviews when compared with bikes launched around the same time such as the Venge and the Foil. I agree that most of those reviews give the bikes glowing feedback but that is usually on the back of a weeks testing rather than living with it for several years.

Again, there is little feedback from owners as they are very rare bikes but there are several cases of owners having problems with QC and warranties and Cipollini failing to deal with them. I know of several shops in the UK that will not deal with Cipollini for precisely this reason.