Hm....good question!

www.racycles.com

This place often has good deals on complete bikes...but shipping would be expensive!

http://www.parker-international.co.uk/s ... ramset.htm

This place in the UK has some of the cheaper prices if you were to buy the group on it's own.

Because the US$ has depreciated importing is now much cheaper for us.
Our $ is worth 15c more than when the retail prices were set.

Thanks for the links

Brian

regarding the campag shimano debate you really have to focus upon the shifting. After all i expect most riders here run aftermarket BB's, chainsets, cassettes, brakes and cables. all that's really left are the shift/brake levers and the front and rear mechs.

Doozer

_________________
Dance you cares away, worries for another day, dance your cares away, down at fragglerock.

DA10 is a very light shift.... there is feedback, but not as much as campy... it is precise, but very "light." very little effort is required to shift... maybe too little effort? the throw has been shortened and the levers are closer to bar now.

i find shifting campy levers from the drops almost impossible. but maybe i didnt setup my bars/shifters at the right angle.

what angle do you setup your bars/shifters so that you have no problem with the thumb button? do you think it is a matter of getting use to? i only have about 100 miles on my campy bike.

i also like the fact that there is lots of feedback when you shift.

the new DA10 hoods are strange... im not sure if like them or not.. they are very shinny near your hand (kind of like DA9 shifters from a few years ago), and then the rise quite a bit so that the top of the shifter is very high up....they didnt feel very good on a friends bike... maybe you have to setup the bars/shiftesr like Lance (shifters rotated far upwards)



Campy has the details down... I agree.

I have tried both out and I'm still undecided... Hopefully someone here can sway me in one position or the other... that's why i posted the question

"....clunky and horrible."?
"....don't think it's very functional."

Wow, what vintage Campagnolo was that???
The Record and the Chorus are the smoothest out there, IMHO.

_________________
"Gimondi è un eroe umano, che viene sconfitto ma che continua la sua corsa fino a tornare a vincere." - Enrico Ruggeri

I'm a D.A guy. Had no problems with lots of miles on the 9-speed. Have just started using some of the 10 speed components on a 9 speed set up on my TT bike.

Supposedly the reach on the new DA shifters is shorter, good if you run your hoods high.

While I like the look of the new stuff - there is something about Campy carbon that is sexy. If I ever got to build my dream bike a PINARELLO MONTELLO CRONO or Colnago Carbonissimo it would with a carbon campy drivetrain.

I prefer Record:
Pro: Better durability of most parts
Lighter
It's just beautiful and the hoods are very ergonomic, the shiftingsystem is just the best
con: Maybe a higher price
Crancks: I don't know why people don't like square taper. The durability is far more better than with ISIS etc. and it's maybe 10g heavier. The Record crancks are also symetric. I don't know about the knew Shimano, but the DA 9s crancks were asymetric. I have also questions about the q factor of the new Shimano cranks. With my Record crancks I have about 3mm space between my feet and the BB bolts. With the outside bearings of the DA I think I should touch the BB bolts unless the q factor is higher.

the isis vs. square taper durability thing is a good point, check out the link
http://www.campyonly.com/roadtests/2003/isis.html

I've used both and tuned plenty while I was working in a shop. Once I got my Record gruppo, there was no turning back. I can appreciate what everyone says about Shimano, but it's just not for me anymore. I need a bit more flair and style to go with the precision of my bike parts. More carbon=more better!!! Some part of this whole 'bike worship' thing we're all into here is about parts that WOW us on an emotional level...that's more Campy to me. Shimano makes me go "oh...cool." But not like when I see any picture of any bike with Boras on it and then my heart starts to race!

I just don't think that there are very many people who, if given a coupon for a free gruppo of their choice would go with DA. I was like 16 when I got into road bikes and there was nothing cooler than the Ciocc with Super Record (and Ambrosio rims with Clement tubies...gotta love the old school) that was in some silly magazine I had. I didn't drool over DA when all I could afford was Shimano 600...Campy was IT!

There are differences in feel and I think that's a good thing...to each, his own. I like the larger platform on Campy hoods and the definite steps of the shifting. I think it feels more precise, actually.

Campy is a tad more finicky to set up, but once broken in a tad, I think it holds adjustments better than Shimano. And of course Campy is rebuildable...as opposed to replaceable.

That said I have a Suzuki motorcycle (and a Toyota truck...) not a Ducati or Aprilia. So I'm not insane about the Italian thing...

Cheers

_________________
Independent Fabrication Crown Jewel
Jamis Xenith SL is next up...

To Andrew's reach/angle questions: that's going to depend also on which bar you use, not just the shifters: some "ergo" bars are just "wrongo" ergonomically, for some people. It takes some adjustment.
I think shifting feedback is good, you develop a body memory.
The relative proportions of the elements (upshift/downshift/brake/hood/lever to bar) for me are better on the Campagnolo.
And secularist is right: there is an emotional aspect:
but this debate is goin' on forever so better just think about Shimano versus Campagnolo and sing:

"...Half of the people can be part right all of the time,
Some of the people can be all right part of the time.
I think Abraham Lincoln said that..."
- Bob Dylan, "TALKIN' WORLD WAR III BLUES"

_________________
"Gimondi è un eroe umano, che viene sconfitto ma che continua la sua corsa fino a tornare a vincere." - Enrico Ruggeri

Shimano is easier to install and adjust. Campy works better when adjusted properly. Campy is lighter. A big thing though as far as quiet operation and durability has to do with maintenance. Keeping the drivetrain clean, lubed and adjusted. I use dry lube primarily, but mix 1/2 Finish-line teflon plus with White lighting. Drivetrain stays super clean and quiet. Changing the chain often will also keep the drivetrain quiet and the cassettes and rings will last longer also.

Personally, all things considered, I prefer campy, the clean look on the bars, the lightness, the operation .. but like the DA upshift, you get a little more leverage. Sometimes the rubber hood on the ergo get's a little twisted to the side from lots of up-shifting, that's annoying. Don't happen with DA. If I could find ergo-levers that had the DA upshift with the campy thumb downshift I'd probably buy it given it were the same weight. Hell.. I've spent too much money as it is, I hope nobody comes out with it.

Having riden lots of both, I am currently running DA 9 and will soon move to DA 10.

The Campag hidden cables look nicer, but their (to me -and Big Jan) older "pointy top" levers wre more comfortable and looked better. But I still prefer the ergonomics if the Shimano levers (as one Shimano engineer described it - Shimano designs the component to fit the rider and then makes it work on a bike, Campagnolo designs bicycle components that a rider can use).

Campag gruppos are not as technically advanced as Shimano ones. Campag uses lots of black cloth, but Shimano's designers have come up with some brilliant designs (Cranks, chains, and the whole idea of STI levers)- that go together well, last brilliantly and are much cheaper to maintain.

I have to strongly disagree with the idea of being disapointed with DA long term, DA (IMHO) works better, lasts longer, copes with abuse better, is cheaper in the long term, and (whilst this may be different elsewhere in the world) in Australia Shimano parts are available at every shop whereas Campag is often order only.

p.s. Rouge and Super, The CSL is the most amazing thing the Bavarians have released in a while, looks heaps meaner than the standard M3, and the noise it make when the loud pedal is pressed in "M Track Mode" is amazing!

Edit: Postscript, and Shimano quote

_________________
Success is how far you you bounce back up after being knocked down

I like STI more than Ergopower, but that's a personal thing.

_________________
Whow! That's a pretty damn nice garage door!

DA and Campy are like an American Luxury car vs. an Italian sports car respectively. DA wants to isolate you from everything and Campy has the stiff shocks and stab clutch. I like the sports car myself, but it's a subjective choice.

I have never been that impressed with DA durability though it's better than it used to be. I always like the old Mavic SSC group from the late 80's the best. That stuff lasted forever. Second would be campy, not as long lasting but you can replace any little part you have to. I do think the BB is anachronistic at this point, I was disappointed they didn't go to ISIS for 04. It's not that hard to pop out sealed bearings once in a while in exchange for more stiffness.