Cracked frames and manufacturers way of dealing with it

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

drewb wrote:Cannondale - replaced the frame super fast and super nice.

Trek - as above with Cannondale - with help from LBS whom I have dealt with for years. (even got to choose new Project 1 colours!)

Kuoata -the worst. lied and denied and strung everything out - got off on a technicality. never again.

Lifetime warranty counts.


Yes Lifetime warranty is a good thing.
I wonder if there is a difference with respects to where the frames are actually built (I think it is or atleast from manufacturers perspective)!?
Specialized, Scott, Cervelo (all none RCA) etc etc source frames from Asia and possibly can't have the frames repaired to same or similar status as a new frame (ofcourse according to themselves).
If we would look at frames like Guru, Parlee, Argonaut, Rolo, Cervelo RCA, Legend, Cipollini, Berk Composites, Time, Ax Lightness etc who actually build the frames themselves i wonder if the outcome is different. Mass produced frames are much cheaper to build compared to the frames with more labour costs.
I also wonder how many times a frame can be repaired before it should be replaced?
There is small possibilty to change a decision as manufacturer claims it's interpretative prerogative due to their skills.
How can you change a decision if you say you don't trust the repair and they say it is good, great as good as new?
Who can actually say what is right and prove a descion/ outcome is not right when they are 100% sure but you are not?
There is a big chance dealer/ shop will keep good will with manufacturer rather than you, one small customer.
Who really looks and ask what and how a warranty is exercised in detail, if a warranty is due to happen?
You would probably need that in print if you should have legal rights to your claims.
When it comes to (saving) money, it is not really easy being on the side were you ask for the more costly outcome.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

arthurf
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by arthurf

wheelsONfire wrote:
drewb wrote:I wonder if there is a difference with respects to where the frames are actually built (I think it is or atleast from manufacturers perspective)!?
Specialized, Scott, Cervelo (all none RCA) etc etc source frames from Asia and possibly can't have the frames repaired to same or similar status as a new frame (ofcourse according to themselves).
If we would look at frames like Guru, Parlee, Argonaut, Rolo, Cervelo RCA, Legend, Cipollini, Berk Composites, Time, Ax Lightness etc who actually build the frames themselves i wonder if the outcome is different. Mass produced frames are much cheaper to build compared to the frames with more labour costs.


I can only speak for Cipollini but my experience of their warranty service was absolutely horrific. Endless lies and promises about what was happening to my frame and a very protracted respray period (>14 weeks). They seemed to care more about new and future customers rather than looking after existing customers. There are several reviews of their customer service online and every one says the same - premium product, anything but premium aftercare.

That being said, there are plenty of Cipollini owners that have never had a problem with their products and hopefully never will so the number of failures seem to be reasonably small.

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kgt
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by kgt

Reading in this forum about the issues some owners had with their Cipollini frames I had asked my LBS about that who is the Cipollini and Cervelo importer in Greece during the last 5 or so years (and dealer of many other big brands). He answered he had almost none issue with Cipollini in comparison to other frames. He also told me that the LBS is very much responsible for what the service is. If the LBS does not support its customer then it is much probable that neither the company will. BTW the 10 year Cipollini gives with its frames is in practice a lifetime support.

ghisallo2003
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by ghisallo2003

I had an A1 experience from Cervelo in the UK through my retailer. Pictures of small crack in 2008 frame sent and new 2014 frame received within two weeks.

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kgt
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by kgt

wheelsONfire post is really interesting.
Since no company wants to lose money imagine how cheap these frames are to produce for these companies in order to immediately replace their frames without a second though. I cannot imagine a company like Colnago or Time replacing their frames just like that.

arthurf
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by arthurf

kgt wrote:Reading in this forum about the issues some owners had with their Cipollini frames I had asked my LBS about that who is the Cipollini and Cervelo importer in Greece during the last 5 or so years (and dealer of many other big brands). He answered he had almost none issue with Cipollini in comparison to other frames. He also told me that the LBS is very much responsible for what the service is. If the LBS does not support its customer then it is much probable that neither the company will. BTW the 10 year Cipollini gives with its frames is in practice a lifetime support.


But how many Cipollini frames does he sell compared to other brands? I have only seen 2 other Cipollini's in the UK but hundreds of Cervelo, Specialized, Scott etc. I'm not saying that there are more or less failures on Cipollini's pro rata than any other brand, only that when there is a failure, their after sales support is appalling as has been well documented in a number of places on here and elsewhere on the net.

From my conversations with the UK distributor, it didn't matter how good their relationship with Cipollini is/was, Cipollini did things in their own time and no amount of relationship building or chasing sped anything up.

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kgt
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by kgt

Greece's road cycling market is rather small so the differences are not that big. Let's say for every Cipollini or Colnago one sells two Cervelos or three Specialized.
'Doing things in their own time' is not wrong by itself. There are many precious items which take months to be repaired or years to be constructed. I don't want to defend Cipollini's after care, it my suck and that's bad. OTOH take a look to Cipollini's handmade manufacturing process (or Parlee's, or Argonaut's, or Legend's etc). There are only a handful of people involved. It is accepted for them to need much more time in order to fulfill all demands.

My question is why is it so easy for some manufacturers to replace a frame? Is not the (very low) production cost a serious factor?

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

There are no knowledge for consumer what happens when a problem appears. Words are not at all, you need it in print. I don't believe dealers are so much part of the process, they are a mere middleman and if they do not help much, what use are they? They probably back up their business partner as they are in this for years to come. You can consider a fail of any nature in a frame. What do you consider a resonable approach?
A repair, a second repair? When is it due for an exchange? Is it ever?
What is your feelings and opinions worth? Sure they may understand you but that does not mean they act accordingly.

Yes KGT, those companies try to repair things at all costs. Outsourced Asian made frames, who should or shall repair these? There is no-one that can do it.
But you can bet the manufacturer in Asia has to take a huge part of this financial loss.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

arthurf
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by arthurf

kgt wrote:OTOH take a look to Cipollini's handmade manufacturing process (or Parlee's, or Argonaut's, or Legend's etc). There are only a handful of people involved. It is accepted for them to need much more time in order to fulfill all demands

My question is why is it so easy for some manufacturers to replace a frame? Is not the (very low) production cost a serious factor?


I do agree with this and I was expecting 6-8 weeks for my frame to be stripped and resprayed which is reasonable. 14 weeks with very little accurate update on what was happening was totally unacceptable IMO. Unfortunately I did get the impression that they were dealing with new orders before my warranty. I think that if you are an existing customer with a warranty issue, your case should jump towards the front of the queue, not put to the back.

With regards to the frame replacement, a lot of these companies are American (Trek, Specialized etc.) or have American origins (Scott) and the American companies I have dealt with have all offered exceptional customer service. Their first concern is always the customer and their company reputation, not the cost to replace an item.

In my case, I spent £3300 on my Cipollini frame but I will never buy another Cipollini or Italian bike after my experience, nor would I recommend one to anyone.

My Foil was £2000 and the one issue I had was resolved within 24hrs (seatpost binding bolt loosening, new bolt at my LBS within 24hrs from their Belgium warehouse). Based on this, I would definitely buy another Scott, possibly the new Foil and I would have no hesitation in recommending them to friends and family. By implementing excellent customer service, they now have a loyal customer, another potential £2000+ frame sale as well as positive recommendations to more future customers.

I'm sure a Scott, Spesh or Trek frame is considerably cheaper to replace than a Cipollini or Colnago but their customer service is light years ahead of any Italian company and really values the customer.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

^^^

I agree that customer service is very important aswell as an actual and mutal agreement is the key to business. Not i know best at all cost and do as i see fit, only!
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

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kgt
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by kgt

I also agree that customer service is very important but if you "never buy another Cipollini or Italian bike" after your experience then what the guy who has cracked 4(!) Cervelo frames should do?

In other words it's interesting how some companies can keep their loyalty while other companies are struggling to have satisfied customers although their product is superior. Maybe replacing a frame works this way. Even if the quality of a frame is questionable that does not matter at all since I can have a new, better toy each and every time it breaks. Loyalty granted, marketing satisfied.

arthurf
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by arthurf

kgt wrote:I also agree that customer service is very important but if you "never buy another Cipollini or Italian bike" after your experience then what the guy who has cracked 4(!) Cervelo frames should do?


It depends how Cervelo handled his claim. If they handled it well and swiftly then fine, keep riding them if you want. If not, then maybe he needs to think about going elsewhere. But for one person to break 4 frames, I would be wondering how he is riding them.

In other words it's interesting how some companies can keep their loyalty while other companies are struggling to have satisfied customers although their product is superior. Maybe replacing a frame works this way. Even if the quality of a frame is questionable that does not matter at all since I can have a new, better toy each and every time it breaks


What makes a Cipollini, Colnago etc superior to a Scott, Specialized or Trek? The fact that it is made in Italy? The fact it has a fancy paint job? The quality of a product is judged across its lifecycle, not just the quality of the physical product when purchased. In this way, I would consider Specialized etc. far superior to many given the quality of the product at purchase and the exceptional (generally) aftersales and warranty service that they offer. The R&D that goes into a Scott or Specialized is head and shoulders above anything that Cipollini or Colnago offer.

I would rather have a bike with a less fancy paint job from a mainstream brand that I can ride rather than a boutique frame that you can't ride for 4 months whilst they're dealing with new customers.

Loyalty granted, marketing satisfied.


It has nothing to do with marketing, it has to do with a company recognising the importance of a customer and providing the aftersales service expected in order to build loyalty. Cipollini showed me no loyalty by pushing my warranty return to the back of the queue. If Cipollini spent as much money on their aftersales service as they do on marketing then maybe they would be getting a more positive response here.

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kgt
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by kgt

I have to disagree... anyway I won't argue on "what makes a Cipollini, Colnago etc superior to a Scott, Specialized or Trek" neither debate your view that "the R&D that goes into a Scott or Specialized is head and shoulders above anything that Cipollini or Colnago offer". I just see things differently... Just keep in mind that we are talking about bicycle frames where some things are much much simpler than you think. You don't really need any R&D department or huge budget in order to make a great frame. Just see all the small artisans and the quality of their work.

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