Help me choose..C60 or Dogma F8?

[BlackMadone]

I just crossed the 1,000 mile mark on my F8, and it just keep growing on me. Rode 500+ miles in one week and the bike is just perfect. Super comfortable, efficient, fast and handles like a dream. There is no going wrong with either of these two bikes.

True, I don't think there is a wrong answer here. Everytime I look at it I want to go for a ride. It handles like it on rails...

[boots2000]

What is your saddle height as pictured?

Size 54 (55cm top tube).

Fit me spot on, but be aware, the online stack and reach chart seem off (esp. reach as I could use a 20mm longer stem than predicted)

[Indurain]

Late to party, but I can add some detailed personal experience.

I have been riding a C59 (DA9070 Di2, 303s) for a couple of years (20,000km) and am told by all that the C60 has the same beautiful handling and comfort etc but is just a little bit stiffer.

I tested the F8 (DA9070 mechanical, Mavic Kysrium SLSs) for two weeks in the Italian alps (1,000km, 30,000m of altitude gain ) so got a really good feel for it.

C59/C60

Pros:
- Perfect handling, utterly predictable tracking, handles hairpins and sweepers with complete confidence whether smooth or bumpy.
- Comfortable all day, including 200km+ rides on chipseal and gravel roads (yes, I know, taking it on gravel is rough on the paintjob but it's a testament to the handling that I can pretend to be Cancellara without fear of coming off!)
- Very responsive, no lag, and feels damn fast to me. I used to race more or less full time so I like to think I know how fast feels
- It's white, the Italia paint scheme, and looks so beautiful it hurts. Good thing I like cleaning it tho
- There aren't too many of them around which gives it some exclusivity.
- I willing to bet a lot, well actually the cost of the C60 I have my eye on, that the C60 will be the same but better.

Cons:
- Not many cons, the biggest would be that when I sprint hard out of the saddle it can feel like the back wheel is unweighted and skipping a little. Maybe rider error, getting too far over the bars, but doesn't happen on my Colnago CX-1.
- The seat post was slipping at recommended torque (5nm), but a bit of carbon friction paste fixed that. Still annoying though.
- It's got a fiddly unique headset design. Takes a 2 or 2.5mm allen which requires great care not to strip the bolt head.

F8

Pros

- I really liked this bike. I spent a couple of days on a Dogma 65.1 first and it didn't feel good. Onto the F8 and I felt at home, as though I had the C59 under me. The F8 was a WAY better bike than the 65.1
- This is a really snappy and responsive bike, but in a predicable way. The handling is definitely a little sharper than the C59.
- Very comfortable - 6+hr days in the saddle and no complaints. It's not quite as comfortable as the C59, but pretty damn close.
- Corners like a dream, I could stick it hard down descents of the Stelvio, Mortirolo and Gavia with complete confidence.
- It's pretty light, albeit not even close to WW heaven
- It feels super fast, same as the C59.
- I think it looks really nice, and those forks really grew on me. Obviously a very different aesthetic from the Colnago.

Cons

- The wheelbase is shorter than the Colnago (both size 57) and the toes on my size 47 shoes hit the front wheel on super sharp uphill hairpins, forcing me to take a wide line. Annoying, and the guy I was talking to said I probably could eliminate this by going one frame size larger.
- There are a lot of these around, including a worrying number of counterfeit ones, so they have less exclusivity than the Colnago.

Overall both bikes are killer. I am seriously contemplating buying a F8 next year when I go back to Italy, but then I look at the C60s in my LBS and get all excited as well. I'm actually going to wait to see how the disc-brake testing in the ProTour next month pans out as, if it takes off, we're all going to be buying disc-brake bikes in 2016 so we don't look out of date

[Harmitc]

Why didn't you like the 65.1? Interested to hear your comments.

On my C59 I got fed up with the headset and reverted to a std type. I think Colnago did this on final C59 production.

[poppiholla]

Interesting that you say that the F8 is way better than the 65.1. There is not much difference in geo between the bikes. Way better seems exaggerated imho. The F8 is a little bit stiffer and more aero. The 65.1 probably more comfy. Both are superb bikes and a lot of Pro Tour stages are won on both bikes.
I am also Interested to hear your comments. I really love my 65.1. I like the F8 but it took me a long time to get used to it. I am not a fan of the rear low triangle that all aero bikes have these days. I wonder if I will ever upgrade to the F8. The F8 doesn't feel to me as sexy as the 65.1.

[Indurain]

Interesting that you say that the F8 is way better than the 65.1. There is not much difference in geo between the bikes. Way better seems exaggerated imho. The F8 is a little bit stiffer and more aero. The 65.1 probably more comfy. Both are superb bikes and a lot of Pro Tour stages are won on both bikes.
I am also Interested to hear your comments. I really love my 65.1. I like the F8 but it took me a long time to get used to it. I am not a fan of the rear low triangle that all aero bikes have these days. I wonder if I will ever upgrade to the F8. The F8 doesn't feel to me as sexy as the 65.1.

For me the 65.1 just felt slightly wrong whereas the F8 felt like I had my C59 under me. To be fair to the 65.1 the stem was 10mm too short so my upper back got sore after a few hours, but I just felt the handling was a bit "off", particularly descending. Put it this way, on the 65.1 down the Umbrail Pass (a notoriously difficult descent but one I know well) I was near the back of the group, and then a few days later on the F8 I was lead rider the whole way down. How much was the bike, and how much was my confidence in it? Probably the latter, but the end result is the same. Interested to know what you guys think about the effect of a stem being 10mm short on descending??

I am being picky here, but the C59 and the F8 were a class above.

[Harmitc]

I've got a C59 and agree with your comments. A totally confidence inspiring bike that does everything very well.

I recently bought a 65.1 and was interested in your comments. On the first shake down ride I was somewhat uninspired. It was a nice bike but didn't seem special. I was disappointed considering the hype and cost. But later that day I took it for a proper ride and the further I rode the better it got! It climbed well, was very comfortable on the flat where some of the surface was rough and broken and as confidence inspiring as the C59 when descending. Overall I'd say it was as good as the C59, but the I initial impression was mediocre.

However whenever I have a "first ride" I always ensure stem length, bar width and the wheels in particular are the same. They have such an effect on the feel, without having this baseline I always struggle to make an accurate comparison.

But based on my experience so far, and the additional mileage on the 65.1 since that first ride I'd certainly put it equal to the C59 which is a comment I didn't think I'd be making.

[oks315]

Dogma is better than C60. Because Dogma has hard frame.

[kov79]

What is ur seat height from bb?
Chosing between 54 and 55 and would like to know in ur picture what the seat height is on the 54?

Cheers

[CEVelo]

My seat hight is 29.5 inch (give or take a few mm) in that photo.
What size you leaning towards? I have now changed my stem to a -10 degree and cut down the fork a little.

[scamper996]

I have both the 65.1 and f8 also had a c59 for a while. C59 was very sluggish for my riding style . 65.1 in my opinion climbs better than the f8 . but in other factors the f8 wins but by a small margin. My humble 2 cents worth

Sent from my 2014817 using Tapatalk 2

[kov79]

I'm going to go a 54 now u have said that, my seat height is 747mm, I just wanted to make sure I'd have some seat post. Just have to wait the 12 weeks for it to arrive now!

[gizgaz]

Been riding my new F8 now for 500 miles or so. Initial feelings are all positive apart from one unexpected aspect, but i'll come to that later.

Firstly the bikes 'ride' is lovely. For me, the the easiest way to explain it is to compare it to cars. If you've ever driven a BMW or Audi the ride characteristics are always quite firm, nearly no body role, but without being overly harsh. The ride of the F8 is similar, but replace the words "body role" with "frame flex" and you're about there.

Secondly the bike exaggerates the aero effect deep rim wheels fantastically. I'm coming from the 60.1 and 65.1 previous, so it's an interesting base for comparison. I use Dura Ace c24's and Enve 6.7's depending on what i'm up to. On the 65.1 the difference between the aero of the two wheels isn't that ridiculous and has always left me with that nagging feeling in the back of my mind "did I really need to drop £££ on the Enve's??? Could have bought a couple other bikes for that". But then, bolt the Enve's onto the F8, head out, and a child like grin appears. The combination of deep rims and the F8 is just insane. A few times, on roads I know well, i've glanced down at the Garmin, and just chuckled to myself.

Now for the bad(ish)... In the interest of keeping the frame light, but needing the larger tube shapes for aero purposes, Pinarello have made the walls of the tubes thin... I mean really thin. If you use your thumbs and press on the down tube at the letter 'A' of the Pinarello logo, you can flex the wall of the tubes. The same is true of the seat tube. Don't get me wrong, I've not had any problems with my F8 at all, but sure makes me nervous of any accidental side impacts. So much so i've taken out specific bike insurance for the first time ever. This maybe 'a thing' with larger aero shaped tubes on different bikes, I don't know, but this is the first bike i've ever had it on.

Anyway, thats enough for now... Ride on!

[jwfinesse]

Now for the bad(ish)... In the interest of keeping the frame light, but needing the larger tube shapes for aero purposes, Pinarello have made the walls of the tubes thin... I mean really thin. If you use your thumbs and press on the down tube at the letter 'A' of the Pinarello logo, you can flex the wall of the tubes. The same is true of the seat tube. Don't get me wrong, I've not had any problems with my F8 at all, but sure makes me nervous of any accidental side impacts. So much so i've taken out specific bike insurance for the first time ever. This maybe 'a thing' with larger aero shaped tubes on different bikes, I don't know, but this is the first bike i've ever had it on.

I just checked that I can flex down tube and seat tube, using my thumb. My guess is that F8 tubings are like double or triple butted tubes on steel frames, where walls are the thinnest at the middle, as I push down closer to the joint areas like bb shell and head tube, I can't flex them anymore. This is a surprise, though no worries. The frame itself feels like a tank with a rear suspension.

I am a big guy, able to down 1300~1500 watts in short bursts, and the frame keeps asking for more. Front end of this bike also feels like a tank with no flex whatsoever (except from my bars) The rear end feels plushier than my previous Parlee Z3 built with XL tubing. It's kind of a paradox to ask for a frame that is stiff and compliant. My Z3 was stiff, even more so than F8. With F8, I think I've found the sweet spot of stiffness vs compliance.

One thing I found disturbing is that the fd braze-on mount bolts were loose, loose enough to make a crackling sound under power. Pinarello factory kindly painted all over the bolt heads, and as I tried to tighten those bolts, I stripped one ever so easily. Got pissed off and replaced all bolts with stainless steel bolts of my choice. If any of F8 owners out there hears a loud crackling noise when you pedal, I suggest you to check if these bolts aren't loose.

Here are pics of my ride:

[Delorre]

Really nice bike jwfinesse!! What size is that? Saddle height? Can you give a build list and final weight?