Decisions on new bike

[MarkTwain]

I said I need to feel comfortable first, which I don't on my bike. As I also mentioned an aero frame would probable suit me better

Looking for comfort...on an aero bike?

Which would 'suit you better', but you can't keep a hold of 52mm wheels. And an Enve rear is only 7mm more shallow (at 45mm).


Just say you want to lay down a pile of cash on a crazy good looking machine and this is what you want Nothing wrong with that.

[kgt]

I would suggest you don't stuck with aero. In reality 99,9% of this story is marketing. And you don't even need the 0,1% since you don't race (not that it would make any difference). I agree Lightweights are not the best wheels in crosswinds but are still the best wheels period. Ultra stiff, comfortable, bombproof. Again, you don't race so the case of an accident is practically non existing.

So just buy a multivalent, comfortable and lively frame that will make you ride more often, a frame that fits you, a frame you like. Bond is a really nice frame and believe me I have ridden lots. Buy it if it fits you and you like it. Otherwise search for something else.

[luckypuncheur]

It seems there are a lot who think a top frame is just a matter of low weight and some stiffness numbers on a Tour test. In their opinion a Colnago, Pinarello, Cipollini etc. is just a retarded product. I guess they also see every steel or titanium frame as a failure in two wheels (too heavy not stiff at all). Of course they 'know' an aero frame or a wider rim will make them faster. Until the new trend appears...

Again, wrong: The Colnago C60 and the Dogma 65.1 had very positive reviews in the Tour. Yes, they're also heavy, but obviously for a good reason.
And to be clear: I'm not saying that Cippollinis are bad frames, but they tend to be on the heavy side, not aero-tuned at all and very expensive. On the other hand, they're really good looking - which can easily be the decisive factor. So if the OP fell in love with the Cipo, he should just buy it. If he looks for the best performance in terms of weight and aerodynamics, he should look elsewhere. BTW: You seem to feel personally offended that someone dares to have the opinion that your bike of choice is not the be all end all - get over it.

And yes, riding titanium or steel frames nowadays is completely beyond my understanding in terms of performance. BUT: I can more than understand the love for these frames just for the beauty and craftsmanship that they represent. If I had some change to spare, I'd order a Baum on the spot.

[tids0009]

Maybe not quite your cup of tea, but to illustrate an example of how you can get a top end bike built that you love at a considerable lower price than buying a complete bike. This is what i got

A brand new 2014 Colango C59 frame from a local shop on run out special for $3,499.
I then ordered a 2015 Campagnolo Super Record mechanical groupset from Ribble which cost $2,030 all up.
I then got the following
Selle Italia SLR team edition saddle $135
Deda Superleggero stem $92
Deda Newton shallow bars $57
Colnago bar tape $15
Found a set of brand new Campagnolo Hyperons on gumtree for $2000.

All up the bike cost me $7,828 and i couldn't be happier. It's the ultimate bike to ride. So comfortable, very quick on the climbs and super smooth on the flats with ceramic bearings everywhere.

[kgt]

luckypuncheur I guess you understand somehow that you contradict yourself.
a) You write about Tour tests. You may find many tests online and in magazines with glowing reviews on Cipollini frames. Just search.
b) You say Cipollinis "tend to be on the heavy side, not aero-tuned at all and very expensive". On the other hand Pinarello and Colnago are equally "on the heavy side, not aero-tuned at all and very expensive" but you think these are really good frames. Why? Because Tour say so.
c) You admit "riding titanium or steel frames nowadays is completely beyond my understanding in terms of performance" but you would order a Baum "just for the beauty and craftsmanship". Have you seen a Cipollini frame up close? Its beauty and craftmanship are miles ahead of any Scott, Specialized, Trek etc. Only hi-end Time frames come close or frames from smaller boutique brands. Not a coincidence Cipollini and Time are 100% made in Europe.
d) There is not such thing as "best performance in terms of weight and aerodynamics". A frame is a high performance frame or not. It is a racing worthy frame or not. Cipollinis are 100% race worthy at the highest level.
So.. I am not personally offended, I am just judgmental on people who dismiss something with proven value and very positive reviews without any real world experience or actual evidence.

[Dirty32]

Kev,

I realise it's a couple years old and you might have to travel to collect (or organise freight) if you are keen, but I noticed this earlier today.

Seems well specced and while the price would need to be confirmed (obviously a typo in the asking price...!), it could be worth looking at if it fits, size wise. Admittedly, I dont know where the 'Logos' fits, in the Cipo range.

http://cyclingtips.com.au/marketplace-ad/cipollini-logos-1/

[KCookie]

Thanks for the info dirty32. Off to the shop Saturday to either get a refund, which the owner is more than happy to do, and keep looking, or go with the Bond deal.

[sawyer]

luckypuncheur I guess you understand somehow that you contradict yourself.
a) You write about Tour tests. You may find many tests online and in magazines with glowing reviews on Cipollini frames. Just search.
b) You say Cipollinis "tend to be on the heavy side, not aero-tuned at all and very expensive". On the other hand Pinarello and Colnago are equally "on the heavy side, not aero-tuned at all and very expensive" but you think these are really good frames. Why? Because Tour say so.
c) You admit "riding titanium or steel frames nowadays is completely beyond my understanding in terms of performance" but you would order a Baum "just for the beauty and craftsmanship". Have you seen a Cipollini frame up close? Its beauty and craftmanship are miles ahead of any Scott, Specialized, Trek etc. Only hi-end Time frames come close or frames from smaller boutique brands. Not a coincidence Cipollini and Time are 100% made in Europe.
d) There is not such thing as "best performance in terms of weight and aerodynamics". A frame is a high performance frame or not. It is a racing worthy frame or not. Cipollinis are 100% race worthy at the highest level.
So.. I am not personally offended, I am just judgmental on people who dismiss something with proven value and very positive reviews without any real world experience or actual evidence.

KGT - Cipollini do look very nice frames though to be fair it's not unreasonable to question whether they justify the premium price when they don't have the heritage, standing and all that goes with say Pinarello and Colnago

You might be right re they look better up close than the brands you mention, but the Europe/elsewhere delta in this respect is not a universal.

If "proven value" in this context is pro results, then my new Canyon should cost about 2x what it did...

[kgt]

I don't agree. I don't find Cipollini prices that high actually.

A Bond's price in Greece is 2900 euros, not that expensive for a 100% made in Italy frame. RB800 is 3900 and RB1000 is 4900 but these are full monocoque frames. Italian C60 is 4000. Chinese Pinarello F8 is 3900, chinese s-works sl4 is 3000, chinese Cervelo R5 is 4400 and US RCA is 8400.

Proven value has to do with the question of whether a frame is suitable for pro racing or not. Of course Canyon frames are top in terms of performance but if their palmares would justify a 2x cost then Colnago or Pinarello palmares would justify a 100x cost.

Anyway I never said Cipollini frames are the best. That would be stupid. I just questioned the claim that these are only promoted because of Mario and his marketing team. That is not the case at all. Real made in Italy, research, design, patents, construction quality, production cost, exclusivity and performance (reflected in pro racing) are the reasons these are still in the market. Mario does his best, for sure, but if the product was not good nobody would buy it.

[Tinea Pedis]

I am just judgmental on people who dismiss something with proven value and very positive reviews without any real world experience or actual evidence.

Says the guy who dismisses any and all aero data

What a gem.

[kgt]

1. We obviously have a very different view on what "real world experience or actual evidence means".
2. I never dismiss aero data. I just always stress the fact that an aero bike is not always a faster neither a better bike.
I see you don't follow me

[sawyer]

I don't agree. I don't find Cipollini prices that high actually.

A Bond's price in Greece is 2900 euros, not that expensive for a 100% made in Italy frame. RB800 is 3900 and RB1000 is 4900 but these are full monocoque frames. Italian C60 is 4000. Chinese Pinarello F8 is 3900, chinese s-works sl4 is 3000, chinese Cervelo R5 is 4400 and US RCA is 8400.

Proven value has to do with the question of whether a frame is suitable for pro racing or not. Of course Canyon frames are top in terms of performance but if their palmares would justify a 2x cost then Colnago or Pinarello palmares would justify a 100x cost.

Anyway I never said Cipollini frames are the best. That would be stupid. I just questioned the claim that these are only promoted because of Mario and his marketing team. That is not the case at all. Real made in Italy, research, design, patents, construction quality, production cost, exclusivity and performance (reflected in pro racing) are the reasons these are still in the market. Mario does his best, for sure, but if the product was not good nobody would buy it.

Hi - I wouldn't use the frames you've mentioned as a value benchmark and it really turns on what your benchmark is...

I benchmark pro frames against Canyon - given their obvious pro level performance and relatively low cost that seems a decent place to start.

The question is what you're getting by paying more ... although I'm not sold on it, I can see the heritage and palmares of Colnago and Pinarello has value for some people and in that sense justifies the premium. They can charge it.

So for me, the question re Cipollini is what justifies the premium vs Canyon. It's made in Europe but is it better executed or better finished, and if so is it sufficiently significant that it's anything other than a minor cosmetic benefit? What about weight, aesthetics etc....

That question applies to Specialized and co as well by the way. I'm not singling out Cip. Though alongside the better palmares I can think of at least one thing Specialized has over Cip and Canyon is a far larger dealer network for support.

[kgt]

I accept your pov. I agree your 1900 euros Canyon maybe a better frame in terms of performance than my 2900 euros Cipollini bond. On the other hand Cipollini gets very positive reviews as well.

On the "what you're getting by paying more" question: you get a handmade in Italy frame. That may mean nothing to you but for me it is very important. For many reasons and not just construction quality, finish etc. (It has to do with economy, production and labor in Europe vs China etc. etc.) In case you want to stick to design and construction quality only there's not a comparison IMHO. Have you ever seen a Cipollini next to a Canyon?

So I agree with you that in performance/price evaluation Canyon is the absolute winner (or CAAD10) but that is not what I am interested in. I find Canyons so boring that I would never think of buying one even if I truly believe these are great rides.

P.S. Before deciding on my new frame (since 2010 I was riding a Wilier 101 before that I loved) I have talked a lot with friends of mine who have or had a Cipollini while having a huge experience of riding c59, s-works, supersix, bmc, Time, Bianchi, Trek etc. They've all adviced me to only consider three brands: Colnago, Time, Cipollini.

[sawyer]

I accept your pov. I agree your 1900 euros Canyon maybe a better frame in terms of performance than my 2900 euros Cipollini bond. On the other hand Cipollini gets very positive reviews as well.

On the "what you're getting by paying more" question: you get a handmade in Italy frame. That may mean nothing to you but for me it is very important. For many reasons and not just construction quality, finish etc. (It has to do with economy, production and labor in Europe vs China etc. etc.) In case you want to stick to design and construction quality only there's not a comparison IMHO. Have you ever seen a Cipollini next to a Canyon?

So I agree with you that in performance/price evaluation Canyon is the absolute winner (or CAAD10) but that is not what I am interested in. I find Canyons so boring that I would never think of buying one even if I truly believe these are great rides.

P.S. Before deciding on my new frame (since 2010 I was riding a Wilier 101 before that I loved) I have talked a lot with friends of mine who have or had a Cipollini while having a huge experience of riding c59, s-works, supersix, bmc, Time, Bianchi, Trek etc. They've all adviced me to only consider three brands: Colnago, Time, Cipollini.

I got dropped by a guy in my club on a Cippollini while I was on a Canyon ... jk - I actually dropped him. But it wasn't the bike ... I was fitter then!

I don't think there's much in it tbh. Cipollini's are nice but I don't see that they're outstandingly so.

Re the boring point ... fair enough, I can't contradict that ... I find pure stealth bikes boring and wouldn't buy one, but others feel differently.

I also have a Look btw so I'm just the right side of a complete bore ... hopefully

[Tinea Pedis]

I spoke to Vini Fantini boys in 2012 at Langkawi - on Cipo's and they looked terrific. Their thoughts? Bikes "hurt their arses", direct quote. Otherwise "yeah, it's a bike". Does everything else fine. No better than any others. But hurts their bums which coming from a Pro, takes some doing.

But like Sawyer said, to gauge the quality of a brand off its Pro-level success is a false economy.