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sawyer
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by sawyer on Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:33 pm
ergott wrote:sawyer wrote:Even so ... it's not that different in price to the "bottom end" of the carbon tubs ridden by pro teams
Now consider using either Ultegra or DT 350 hubs. You definitely don't need CX-Rays for a box rim 32 spoke build. Use Round, butted spokes. Now the price plummets.
I'm sure you're right, but if you re-read my post it only supports the point that yes at the low end I can see the logic - there you are comparing some shady carbon wheels with solid if heavy and un-aero alloy tubulars
To the extent you don't use high end spokes it just adds heft and potentially drag of course
Point is, other than low end stuff, where I grant you the alloy tub has a logic to it, I still haven't heard a compelling argument for it as a general wheelset instead of carbon once the costs start to get up to the £500 ish range and decent carbon tubulars come into view
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Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!!
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ergott
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by ergott on Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:58 am
Unless the pricing over there is significantly different here's a typical alloy build to consider for this discussion.
DT 350 hubs (Ultegra about the same price)
Nemesis rims
Sapim Race or DT Competition spokes (sub in Laser/Revolutions if possible)
32/32
That should be about 460gbp (about $700), no? What carbon wheels are you comparing in the same price range?
I can think of many conditions where I would rather have those than my carbon tubulars. Doesn't mean I like my carbon wheels any less.
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Calnago
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by Calnago on Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:22 am
ergott wrote:...
I can think of many conditions where I would rather have those than my carbon tubulars. Doesn't mean I like my carbon wheels any less.
Thank you! I was wondering when someone would actually say there's more to it than cost. Just because carbon wheels may cost more, does not mean they are unequivocally better. To me, the most enjoyable riding experience comes on wheels like these as opposed to carbon. A little heavier maybe, a little slower maybe, but if you're out riding by yourself who are you trying to beat?
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Calnago
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sawyer
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by sawyer on Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:04 am
ergott wrote:Unless the pricing over there is significantly different here's a typical alloy build to consider for this discussion.
DT 350 hubs (Ultegra about the same price)
Nemesis rims
Sapim Race or DT Competition spokes (sub in Laser/Revolutions if possible)
32/32
That should be about 460gbp (about $700), no? What carbon wheels are you comparing in the same price range?
I can think of many conditions where I would rather have those than my carbon tubulars. Doesn't mean I like my carbon wheels any less.
HI - even below £450 it's possible to get perfectly reliable high performance carbon tubulars from a reputable retailer such as Planet X.
One can obviously also more easily access discounting on complete wheelsets vs handbuilts
To me the build you've described has an unnecessary number of spokes and associated drag. IME the upside of high spoke count wheels is non-existent though I know those who regularly break wheels feel differently.
That said, alloy tubs are more connoisseurial than lower end carbon wheels I'll grant you!
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Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!!
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verbs4us
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by verbs4us on Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:31 pm
For years rode Mavic GEL 220s on Campy NR low-flange. Even though I'm only 128 pounds, they didn't stay true, probably due to our for-$(@#^ roads here in Westchester County, NY. Switched about a decade ago to GP4s and they held up better. Then, switched to Phil Woods and it was like the Hubs From Another Planet--like I had just steered onto the smoothest asphalt on the Autobahn. Only then did I realize how rough the Campys had become after...uh...35 years.
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bikeboy1tr
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by bikeboy1tr on Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:43 pm
I have a couple rim sets-Mavic Mach 3s on Campy hubs,Mavic CXP 30 on Campy record hubs and a Mavic Box section GP on Campy as well. I like the Machs better as they have a slight aero design to them and stay true with no issues. I weigh about 80kg so they are getting punished under me. I still use them to this day along side some of the Carbon Tubulars I run as well. If you asked me to sell them I would likely refuse. You cant have to many good old hoops.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=154188
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bikeboy1tr
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by bikeboy1tr on Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:48 pm
I should also mention I have an old set of Cosmic Carbon with the aluminum brake surface which should be considered as I believe they are basically a box rim with a carbon fairing around them. Those things are also bomb proof and still true to this day. Think I have had them for 10 years.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=154188
2018 Colnago V2R Rim Brake
2019 Colnago V2R Disc Brake
2014 Norco Threshold Disc Brake
2006 Ridley Crosswind Rim Brake
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dadoflam08
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by dadoflam08 on Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:57 am
ergott wrote:I have sets of Mavic GP4s laced to both White Industries and Alchemy hubs. The Alchemy build is with the 1st gen hubs and they are probably the sweetest wheels I've built/owned.
This sounds like my kind of plan - I'm a sucker for the old ceramic finish box section rims - the GP4 seems to sit right on the sweet spot for weight and strength between the Ambrosio options - picked up a pair of 32H NOS Red Label GP4's today and already running WI T11 hubs in the fleet and am really impressed so will give these another go - by my calcs should be able to bring a wheelset in under 1400g using Sapim Lasers and Race DS.
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ergott
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by ergott on Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:04 pm
dadoflam08 wrote: - by my calcs should be able to bring a wheelset in under 1400g using Sapim Lasers and Race DS.
I forgot if I weighed mine, but I calculate about 1450g. What hubs are you using? My GP4s are around 405g.
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Krull
by Krull on Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:23 pm
Calnago wrote:ergott wrote:...
Just because carbon wheels may cost more, does not mean they are unequivocally better. To me, the most enjoyable riding experience comes on wheels like these as opposed to carbon. A little heavier maybe, a little slower maybe, but if you're out riding by yourself who are you trying to beat?
i have tb25 with tune hubs, 20/24 spokes, weighing ca 1300 gr. good breaking-perfomance, stiff enough, always true, although when riding fast on bad surface (for example descending umbrail-passroad in switzerland etc.) honestly spoken, those wheels are performing as good as any carbonwheels (excluding tt). in wet conditions even better. carbonwheels are more an optical thing, and for the numbers when weighing the bike. one simply wants to own some. but practical relevance neglectable.
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jimborello
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by jimborello on Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:32 pm
I love tubulars , I even love the forgotten art of gluing them. I have deep carbon tubular rims in all my racing bikes (road, triathlon) but I also have an alloy tubular wheelset on a retro bike. The build is the following: Velocity escape rims, 28h front 2x lacing /32h rear 3x , white industries h2/h3 hubs campy freehub, sapim cx ray spokes, everything silver glued to Challenge criterium 23mm tubulars.
The wheelset has been bombproof for two years, I havent had the need to true them once, and it is already on its second pair of tubulars (the first one was a set of Conti sprinters) . Im 75kg and I live in Mexico, where the roads are not very nice, but I really like this build for non competitive riding. In terms of weight is not much heavier than carbon wheels but you can really feel the difference vs a more aero wheel.
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Kjetil
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