Campagnolo Record rear derailleur long cage

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g0t0
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:59 pm

by g0t0

Hi,

does anyone know if there is an aftermarket long cage for the Campagnolo Record rear derailleur?

I would like to attatch bigger pulley wheels (13-15) to it, but so far I have not found a cage fitting them. Basically like the berner cages, which cost a fortune (300€) and are officially for super record only (but I am sure that they fit record aswell).

Would it be a possibility to take an original short cage, cutting the attachment cylinder (is that called like that?) from the carbon piece, then fabricate a new carbon front and back cageplate and attach the cylinder to it? Or am I overthinking this and is there an easier solution?

Another thought: I have seen 12 tooth pulley aswell. Has anyone tried to fit them into a stock campagnolo record cage? The benefit would of course not be as big as the 13-15 combination, but would be way easier to realise :).

highdraw

by highdraw

Maybe you could state your objective with going to a longer cage length...what gearing you plan to run in front (crank) and rear (cassette).

For those who need the chainwrap and a longer cage, my view is just run an Athena 11s triple rear derailleur and save the hassle and $$ of trying to retrofit a longer cage to a Record 11s rear derailleur.

Its also possible that a Centaur 10s mid cage length (72mm) could be retrofitted. Basically buy 2 derailleurs and reverse parts and then sell off the one you don't want with short cage.

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g0t0
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:59 pm

by g0t0

As I said in the first post I want to replace the 11-11 tooth pulleys (or jockey wheels, whatever you want to call them) with larger pulleys as 12-12 or 13-15.
Because of reduced rotating speed of the pulley wheels and lower chain bending friction losses are reduced and efficiency of the drivetrain improved.

Yes, I also thought about taking stock parts, but I am not sure in how far they are interchangable from 10s to 11s and also between different groupsets. As far as I know there are no 11s medium or long cages or am I mistaken?

I have not found any technical drawings for the 10s Record rear derailleur, which was produced with a medium cage. The technical drawings of 10s Veloce and 11s Record at least don't really suggest interchangeability...

Image
Image

highdraw

by highdraw

g0t0 wrote:As I said in the first post I want to replace the 11-11 tooth pulleys (or jockey wheels, whatever you want to call them) with larger pulleys as 12-12 or 13-15.
Because of reduced rotating speed of the pulley wheels and lower chain bending friction losses are reduced and efficiency of the drivetrain improved.

Yes, I also thought about taking stock parts, but I am not sure in how far they are interchangable from 10s to 11s and also between different groupsets. As far as I know there are no 11s medium or long cages or am I mistaken?

I have not found any technical drawings for the 10s Record rear derailleur, which was produced with a medium cage. The technical drawings of 10s Veloce and 11s Record at least don't really suggest interchangeability...

Image
Image

Honestly, you pose a good question because some who do a lot of mountain riding in particular who like Record may want a longer cage because they need more than a 33t chain wrap when running a compact up front and larger cassette in back that a short cage won't handle. Where we differ a bit is you now take an exceptional condition and add further stipulations like particular jockey wheel size for what I consider an esoteric condition of slowing jockey wheel speed perhaps to improve jockey wheel life...not even sure what your objective is. This clouds the issue.

Switching mid or long cage 10s metal cages with Record may not work as you show pictorially. Unless somebody has done that expressly, I wouldn't try personally. Instead go with a long cage triple Athena 11s rear derailleur if you need the gearing you think you do. No it won't be as light or even as elegant as a carbon Record short cage derailleur, but it will shift your 11s Campy groupset fine and keep a longer chain tight on small/small because of the longer cage length. Ribble in the UK sells them for a very fair price and a hellofa lot cheaper than a Record or Chorus RD anywhere you buy.
My thoughts.
PS: my only personal gripe with choosing an Athena 11s long cage option is at 89mm it is longer than what I would personally prefer. I like Campy's mid length cage at 72mm. Campy's short cage for point of reference is 55mm.
Last edited by highdraw on Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

g0t0
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:59 pm

by g0t0

I already have the Record groupset, so swapping the derailleur for an athena one is a no-go for me.

To put my goal in easy words: bigger pulley/jockey wheels equals higher drivetrain efficiency equals lower power losses equals higher speed at same power output. This has nothing to do with the gearing in general or the cassette. Read on friction-facts.com.
If this effect is esoteric or not in your eyes is a different story.

One side effect might be, that the additional variability of slack coming from the installed q-rings would be coped with in a better way with a longer cage. As I read a 55mm cage can handle a chain wrap of 27, my drivetrain setup has 28 (54/39 front, 25/12 rear), but on q-rings. Not sure how much these affect chain wrap.

highdraw

by highdraw

g0t0,
Sorry buddy but you are chasing foo foo dust by changing your Record cage with the goal of larger jockey wheels to mitigate driveline loss versus accommodate wider gearing.

But good luck in your pursuit...one for the 'Record'...forgive the pun...lol.
You should check what Nibali just won the TdF on with mechanical Super Record. Somehow he muddled out a victory on standard jockey wheel size...astounding I tell you. ;)

ferrarista
Posts: 1202
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:39 am
Location: Canada

by ferrarista

Campagnolo made the 10 speed record carbon cage derailleur in short , medium and long cage for triple.

If you already have the short cage carbon, you can install a medium carbon cage. Long cage doesn't fit with short and medium derailleur. You have to buy a complete long cage derailleur.
Medium cage should be enough for what you want to do.

Part number for the medium carbon cage is cam-RD-RE002M
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g0t0
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:59 pm

by g0t0

highdraw you are telling me that this is just foo foo dust in a forum where others do whatever it takes to save another gram? :D
Of course there are professional riders riding stock parts... but that also has to do with sponsoring and the uci equipment rules that widely forbid prototype equipment which is not available to the public aswell as modification of components.

ferrarista do you know if the Record 10s parts fit the 11s derailleur? What makes the long cage impossible to mount?
edit: uh, nevermind the question about the long cage. I just measured the cage length of the berner cage on my timetrial bike, which is 63mm, so the medium cage should be sufficient.

highdraw

by highdraw

ferrarista wrote:Campagnolo made the 10 speed record carbon cage derailleur in short , medium and long cage for triple.

If you already have the short cage carbon, you can install a medium carbon cage. Long cage doesn't fit with short and medium derailleur. You have to buy a complete long cage derailleur.
Medium cage should be enough for what you want to do.

Part number for the medium carbon cage is cam-RD-RE002M

That's great info. Can you confirm that the 10s Record carbon cage derailleur is a direct bolt to a 11s Record derailleur body?...no change in jockey wheel spindle spacing (width)?

highdraw

by highdraw

g0t0 wrote:highdraw you are telling me that this is just foo foo dust in a forum where others do whatever it takes to save another gram? :D
Of course there are professional riders riding stock parts... but that also has to do with sponsoring and the uci equipment rules that widely forbid prototype equipment which is not available to the public aswell as modification of components.

ferrarista do you know if the Record 10s parts fit the 11s derailleur? What makes the long cage impossible to mount?
edit: uh, nevermind the question about the long cage. I just measured the cage length of the berner cage on my timetrial bike, which is 63mm, so the medium cage should be sufficient.

People are here for different reasons g0t0. I for example am here because I believe the bike IQ to be a bit higher here than on other forums. I like to be aware of gram weight but to me to make it an absolute priority is misguided...especially for a larger rider aka kg/w. You must feel the same because you want to put larger and heavier jockey wheels on your Record RD. :)

Its all good. If putting larger jockey wheels on your bike makes you happy than go for it. To me its no different than changing the paint job on your frame but to each his own and hope you like it. Only reason I would ever change cage length when it comes to a derailleur as evolved as Campy Record is to satisfy chain wrap. I would love to see a parasitic friction study comparing stock to the jockey wheel design you are considering. To me its fairy dust and to you apparently not.
Cheers

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bikerjulio
Posts: 1900
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
Location: Welland, Ontario

by bikerjulio

OP the standard short cage Campy RD will handle a maximum of 33T chainwrap according to Campy.

My thoughts on installing larger jockey wheels, are that there are a couple of clearance considerations to think about also. There are tabs on the cage that may interfere, and there is the issue of sprocket clearance to considered too.

Pointing perhaps to the need for a complete custom cage to accommodate significantly larger jockey wheels.
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

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ferrarista
Posts: 1202
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:39 am
Location: Canada

by ferrarista

g0t0 wrote:.

ferrarista do you know if the Record 10s parts fit the 11s derailleur? What makes the long cage impossible to mount?
edit: uh, nevermind the question about the long cage. I just measured the cage length of the berner cage on my timetrial bike, which is 63mm, so the medium cage should be sufficient.


unfortunately record 10 cage don't fit 11 derailleur. Its different. The 11 has a smaller spring and lenght of the cage post that goes inside the derailleur body is shorter too. The pulleys fit the 10 derailleur no problem. My record 10 derailleur had 11 speed pulleys. no problem.

The long cage would be too long. Its made specifically for a triple setup. The long cages looks alot like the veloce aluminum long cage, but made in carbon.
The medium is 73mm so its long enough for what you wanna do. Although you will have to modify the back plate and take off the tabs or else you won't be able to
fit your pulleys, especially if you go 13-15 setup.

You could fit a fiberlyte rear plate. They make one in carbon for the medium cage. It doesn't have tabs like the stock one.

http://www.fibre-lyte.co.uk/fl/fl_cycles_carbon_gear_mech.html#
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ferrarista
Posts: 1202
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:39 am
Location: Canada

by ferrarista

Another thing you could do is buy a new or used record 11 speed derailleur and then get the berner cage setup made for the super record. They have the same cage. 11 speed derailleur works pretty good on 10 speed setup. I have a super record derailleur with my record 10speed.
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g0t0
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:59 pm

by g0t0

Thanks for all the helpful input.

highdraw: In that point we agree, the bike IQ is definitely quite high in this forum and usually no one is made fun of for even the most absurd ideas ;)
I am also not after the last gram saved, but like to have a reasonable light bike. Where I live (and compete) the terrain is mostly rolling hills, so weight is important, but not top priority. But I am the type of guy who does not want to blame his bike for bad performance, so I want to get the last bit of efficiency out.
Jason from friction-facts.com has tested it: http://www.friction-facts.com/test-resu ... ulley-test
I don't want to give out any results, but the power saved by larger pulleys is close to 1% for my FTP. Not a lot, but save 1% here, another 1% there and you are easily at 5%, which makes quite a difference then (that is about 1 year worth of training).

ferrarista: yes, I know about the berner cage (and I have one on my time trial bike), but to be honest I'm not really willing to pay 400€ just for the derailleur cage. This is why I am looking for an other option. Also it would be a nice project for the winter ;)
I already found out that the 73mm cage is sufficient for my project and also the fibre-lyte back plate. Now I only have find way to mount a front cage with 73mm pulley wheel distance to the 11s derailleur... I guess I have to dismount the derailleur and have a look at the construction.

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clm2206
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:56 pm

by clm2206

bikerjulio wrote:OP the standard short cage Campy RD will handle a maximum of 33T chainwrap according to Campy..


Really sure about that? I'd like to buy a Potenza 11-32 cassette, but I have a Super Record 2015+ rear derailleur. Can my RD handle a 32 teeth sprocket?

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