BB30 bearings, how quickly do you go through them?

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sungod
Posts: 1702
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:37 pm

by sungod

30,000km on my sram red bb30

no loctite just lghp2 grease

i ride these year round, all weathers, loads of wet rides, with a few washing out the grease, so i clean and regrease, still doing fine

bearings are tough, a few revs per second at human loading is nothing, short bearing life means something is wrong with the bb shell and/or installation and/or maintenance and/or bearings

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highdraw

by highdraw

bm0p700f wrote:Rick that is unusal mileage. Most BB30 issue from from inccorect installation. Try loctite to hold the bearing but as a first try just use anti seize. A good press helps I use a headset press. Not familar with the quarq chainset but the whole point of bearing preload is that should be set first before the crank is fixed. With any load bearings get killed too much they get killed. So I see a number of issues here. Who's doing the install?

Can you explain the sequence that you described in bold? It sounds to be the opposite of proper protocol for installing BB30.

highdraw

by highdraw

Sykes wrote:
bm0p700f wrote:Rick that is unusal mileage. Most BB30 issue from from inccorect installation. Try loctite to hold the bearing but as a first try just use anti seize. A good press helps I use a headset press. Not familar with the quarq chainset but the whole point of bearing preload is that should be set first before the crank is fixed. With any load bearings get killed too much they get killed. So I see a number of issues here. Who's doing the install?



I do the install. Let me run through the process.

1. clean and grease (park tool PPL-1 grease) the shell
2. Fully cover the bearings with grease, races and seals .
3. Install the bearings one at a time with a home made BB press (threaded rod, bolts, washers and 2 wrenches) and a Park Tool BB30 installation bushing. I tighten until the resistance changes due to contact with the retaining clip
4. Put a layer of grease on the outside bearing seal and install the outter seal
5. I follow the instructions from Quarq re the install BB30 I-A (http://www.quarq.com/media/files/95-6115-007-000_Rev_D_Road_Cranksets.pdf), which show the preload as the last step.

Funny you mention loctie. I used loctite instead of grease with my last set of bearings, but it made little difference as the hawkracing bearings made it 400 miles.

Thanks for all of the help guys. From what you have said and reading more about it, I have some other problem, either with my install or BB alignment.

Honestly Sykes, pretty inexplicable really. Above procedure is correct although most mechanics will use Loctite to prevent creaking but that doesn't influence bearing longevity per se. Also, BB bearing alignment typically manifests in terms of spinning resistance. Major bearing misalignment side to side will overcome internal bearing tolerances and shorten life, but I am not hearing that here unless you aren't detecting it. BB30 is typically machined to a tight bore tolerance side to side.

If you continue to struggle and get tired of it, purchase an English threaded spindle Quarq and ebay your BB30 Quarq and install a Praxis conversion BB. These are rock solid and non invasive and also have good bearing sealing for decent life. More pricey than good quality steel BB30 bearings however. Btw, there is variation in BB30 bearing quality but you have used some good quality bearings and still have the same issue. Normally its too tight a preload or ingress of contamination or lack of maintenance schedule that prematurely kills BB30 bearings.
Good luck.

Omiar
Posts: 385
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:20 pm

by Omiar

What do you mean by toast - do the bearing just make noise like your driving on steel tracks or do they have significant play?
Have you taken apart any of the old bearings?

Most bearings are replaced prematurely because the lubricant gets contaminated. The ball bearings and bearing races are usually fine, but when the lubricant wears out, it starts to make significant noise. I actually haven't had any bearing in 18 years that has failed mechanically.
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Rick
Posts: 2034
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 pm

by Rick

In my case, I did my own install.
Keep in mind that I had numerous problems with BB30 installs until I finally arrived at my own method.
IMO the "wave washer" preload method is what causes problems. It doesn't provide a rigid enough side load.

I used loctite 609, and a Park headset press with some BB30 install bushings to set the bearings. I use Phil Wood grease IN the bearings, but put a layer of heavy marine grease outside the bearings between the bearings and dust cap.
Before, when using a 2010 Sram Force crank, I would measure the gap and select exactly the right combination of flat washers to take out the gap without creating a significant side load. That eliminated the wave washer.
Last year I switched to a Sram Red crank, so it has the "preload clamp" that locks on to the spindle. Even that didn't stay in place well, so I put a heavy rubber O-ring captured outside of the clamping ring so it provides a little side preload. It is a kluge, but it is working.

Don't ever use a high-pressure washer on the BB30 bottom bracket, because the sealing is not really waterproof, just "water resistant".

dave.chippie
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:10 pm
Location: UK

by dave.chippie

If the bearings feel gritty or have any corrosion then there must be some water ingress. FSA are not the best bearings out there, never heard of hawk racing but if you read the product description they seem to use a lighter grease and maybe a less draggy seal. You seem to get what you pay for with bearings, I always get SKF and they last me for ages, including winter. Also frames that have a completely sealed shell are not good for bearing life as on a wet ride water can build up.

Donkey

by Donkey

What do you mean "Toast" and how do you actually know?

Image

highdraw

by highdraw

Rick wrote:In my case, I did my own install.
Keep in mind that I had numerous problems with BB30 installs until I finally arrived at my own method.
IMO the "wave washer" preload method is what causes problems. It doesn't provide a rigid enough side load.

I used loctite 609, and a Park headset press with some BB30 install bushings to set the bearings. I use Phil Wood grease IN the bearings, but put a layer of heavy marine grease outside the bearings between the bearings and dust cap.
Before, when using a 2010 Sram Force crank, I would measure the gap and select exactly the right combination of flat washers to take out the gap without creating a significant side load. That eliminated the wave washer.
Last year I switched to a Sram Red crank, so it has the "preload clamp" that locks on to the spindle. Even that didn't stay in place well, so I put a heavy rubber O-ring captured outside of the clamping ring so it provides a little side preload. It is a kluge, but it is working.

Don't ever use a high-pressure washer on the BB30 bottom bracket, because the sealing is not really waterproof, just "water resistant".

In bold above...wave washers by design DO provide a rigid enough side load. What home wrenches and sadly too many bike shop mechanics fail to do is properly space the crank such that the wave washer is poised at the mean of its compression.
What you do to manually space the crank line to line with spacers is tedious and unnecessary and if you get your spacer stack up just slightly wrong, you will prematurely wear BB30 bearings before a wave washer will. In fact what you are doing violates the premise of why most manufacturers use wave washers. Wave washers are in fact in some ways better than mechanical preload lockrings like Rotor or even Campy OverTorque. This is because bearings bed a bit over time and wavewashers with linear spring rate keep an even slight preload on the inner race of bearings whereas mechanical lockrings without vigilance can develop a bit of lash. A wavewasher preload is therefore better than a mechanical lockring set too loose or too tight and why wave washers are so effective. But most don't understand or perform the due diligence of first installing the crank without the wave washer and measuring the gap to see what level of compression the wave washer will be at. All bike BB's have a tolerance stack up if the wave washer isn't under the proper compression either too tight or too loose, bearings will fail prematurely and/or noise will occur.

OP, unless you are getting your wave washer preload wrong repeatedly, then maybe what Rich mentioned has the most merit since you seem to know how to install a BB30 which btw many if most don't.
Never use a hose or power washer near a BB. Also, I presume you are putting a light coating of grease on the bearings and spindle which wards off contamination. Otherwise, pretty hard to explain why all your bearing sets are failing. Perhaps it is the force you are applying to the bearings during installation that is prematurely failing the bearings. Hard to determine the root cause based upon what you have written.

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Rick
Posts: 2034
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 pm

by Rick

I just disagree. For one thing, I tried the wave washer installation numerous times before giving up on it and thinking the whole setup through.
Also, it appears that you are confusing the side load FORCE with the side load STIFFNESS.
Consider a Shimano setup for contrast : the side load is very light; yet the STIFFNESS to lateral motion is very high because the crank is locked in place on the spindle.
That is what I have tried to get with my BB30 setup.
A wave washer may provide sufficient ("proper ?") side load FORCE, but when subjected to a lateral load, you are still only working against the spring rate of the washer, which is really pretty low compared to a rigidly locked-on crank arm or lock ring. I believe that is why BB30 setups commonly end up creaking. The crank sees significant side loads when standing and sprinting, etc.

At any rate, my setup seems to be working quite well, and I am happy with it. While the complaints against the standard wave-washer BB30 setups are ubiquitous and I also had my own troubles. (My bearings weren't going bad, they were simply squeaking/creaking/groaning/clicking. I like to have a totally silent bike.)
As noted above, I have actually been using the same bearing set for a long time; so the only variable was the installation technique.

highdraw

by highdraw

Rick,
I am sorry but you couldn't be more wrong on so many different levels. Your 'theories' violate industry practice which is pretty overwhelming and why wave washers exist. You remind me a bit of the much and righteously maligned Rogue Mechanic who is known to shim Campy cranks and eliminate the wave washer. He couldn't be more wrong either and does a disservice to those who aren't technically adept who follow his advice. You don't know my background but suffice to say I know a lot about this.

You close by saying you are happy with what you have and that is what is important. Complaints about BB30 setups with wave washers being ubiquitous has nothing to do with a wave washer being a poor design. If you struggled in the past, you didn't set it up properly is all which is common and why issues are so prevalent. I have set up hundreds and never an issue.
Good luck.

afalts
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:20 pm

by afalts

Highdraw, I had an old Red crank with a wave washer and Di2 front derailleur. When shifting at the front, the side load created by the front derailleur moved the crank, and you could see the wave washer compress more. Front shifting suffered. Using Rick's method, the crank no longer moved side to side, and shifting was good. I have also seen this on a couple FSA cranks with Di2.

highdraw

by highdraw

Afalts,
Has this only happened to you with Di2 front shifting? Were you shifting up front under load?
You must have amazing eye sight to see the crank literally displace laterally by 1-2mm when riding the bike.

What technique did you use for setting up/spacing your Red crank such that when installed you were at mid point of wave washer compression and not closer to the wave washer being in a less compressed state?

Donkey

by Donkey

Check out these essays.
None of these issues are so complicated deserving of essays.

That wave washer is a mandatory part to preload the crank. Optional are a set of standard/flat washers which complement the wave washer. You should only use the standard washers depending on clearance to preload.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

As I said never fitted the quarq cranks it just the oposite of doing a hollowtech II where the preload is set then torque the crank bolts. Ultimatley I look up instructions if it is something new sorry for any confusion. The only BB30 I have installed are with FSA cranks and non of those creak or give poor bearing life. I think the main problem is poor instalation i.e bearings not going in square and getting damaged or cheap bearing with lack of grease. Shells with no drain holes always seem to have water in them which can't help either may not hurt though.

I can't see any other way around the wave washers as BB shell width varies a bit.

by Weenie


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afalts
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:20 pm

by afalts

highdraw wrote:Afalts,
Has this only happened to you with Di2 front shifting? Were you shifting up front under load?
You must have amazing eye sight to see the crank literally displace laterally by 1-2mm when riding the bike.

What technique did you use for setting up/spacing your Red crank such that when installed you were at mid point of wave washer compression and not closer to the wave washer being in a less compressed state?


Yeah I've only seen in with Di2. I initially built up the bike with the wave washer and Di2, and noticed the movement in the stand (couldn't see it riding, eye's aren't Superman's). Tried riding it and it had a slight lag shifting, just as in the stand. After my first ride I took the wave washer out and used all thin plastic spacers and haven't had an issue putting over 40000 km on the bike (though did replace bearings many times).

The FSA's I saw were all on customers Tri bikes, I worked for 10 years at a high-end road shop. They were all complaining about their new Di2 not shifting as advertised. Same lateral movement observed as with my Red crank when shifting the front, same fix, and happy customers.

Technique: https://www.sram.com/_media/pdf/sram/de ... -Rev-A.pdf Page 28.
Over 4 years ago I did mine, but I'd say the the wave washer had about 1.5-2 mm left to compress until fully flattened.

Interestingly, thinking on it, the bikes I encountered with this issue all had relatively 'loose' crank spindles, that is, they would just slide right out of the BB when the non-drive arm was taken off. Vs others that would require persuasion.

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