New 2015 Campagnolo Front Derailleur

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Permon
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by Permon

highdraw wrote:Permon,
How can you tell by that pic? Resolution doesn't seem high enough to determine design level of derailleurs and shifters.


Bevause I saw the original high res picture.
Even the new patern of the hoods was easy to see.
Definatelly the 2015 hoods.

highdraw

by highdraw

Permon,
Well then the answer is simple. 2015 shift body internals are identical to 2009-2014 and only difference is, they retrofitted earlier 11s detent wheels to reflect pull ratios of earlier front and rear derailleurs. Graeme mentioned the 2015 hood covers register different so you know the shifters just didn't have 2015 hood covers.

But the question isn't if its technically feasible which it clearly is according to you having seen the high res picture...but rather the question is why. Why wouldn't the bike be built with 2015 front and rear derailleurs when using 2015 design level shifters?

If you believe the picture suggests that 2015 shifters are backward compatible, I believe you are mistaken. Also unless you can discern from the picture, the shifters could be 2015 Athena shifters which are Powershift but also have identical cable pull to 2009-2014 Campy 11s derailleurs...so a possibility as well.

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graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

Harmitc wrote:Hi graeme_f_k, thanks for the great info. Slightly off topic, but apart from the crank spider do you know if there are any differences 2014 to 2015 for Super Record EPS? Thanks


Crank spider, chain rings, FD cage and shift throw is all modified, though the new FD is self-detected when fitted to a version 2 (internal PU) system.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
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Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

Butcher wrote:
Mechanical beats electric with simultaneously front and rear shifting and that is about it.



Simultaneous shift *works fine* on EPS. The best way I have found, for me, anyway, to action it is one press and release on the LH, tap-tap-tap on the RH with the LH and first RH "tap" simultaneous as press-and-hold on the R and Press-and-release on the left is hard to co-ordinate.

The "taps" can be as quick as you like, the Interface unit "remembers" them - you don't have to wait for them each to execute.

FD will shift in circumstances of torque and cross-chain loading that will defeat a mechanical system. The times you need it are rare indeed but they do occur - I have upshifted smoothly small ring to big on full gas on the 25 cog of a 12-25, uphill - I think the 2015 mechanical *might* manage it (not tried that particular piece of mechanical unkindness yet) but I doubt it will be as quick or as reliable.

If you want a test, here is one you might try...

Go small-small cross chain.
Stop.
Push the LH upshift lever across and hold it there.
Try and pedal away.

EPS will upshift on the first pedal rotation. Mechanical will likely do it, but there will be some really unpleasant noises and it may take 2 or 3 pedal rotations. It will happen more easily on the 2015 & later chainsets than previous with the mechanical but *those* mods was made to the chainset, originally, for EPS ...
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

Permon wrote:
graeme_f_k wrote:We can confirm absolutely (because we have tried it ...) that 2015 shifters are not compatible with pre 2015 mechs, F or R.

We can also confirm that 2015 hoods are differently lugged on the reverse side to pre-2015 hoods and they are not interchangeable.


Graeme, how do You explain this picture?
1) those are 2015 shifters with 2014 FD and RD or
2) 2015 hood on 2014 shifter bodies

Both cases denied by You earlier :shock:


Explanation = "Prototyping".

You may also recall that Ullrich had what were apparently v1 Ergopowers shifting an early 10s rear gear back in the day - not something that was ever offered in commercial form.

This is a part of why Campagnolo (and everyone else) sponsors teams - to try, say, new lever hood designs / materials and to be able to say - "so, Vincenzo, Jan, etc., how did you find it?"

As Highpath (I think) suggests and we can confirm, the 2014 lever shells and the 2015 lever shells that we have seen, anyway, are (almost) interchangeable, the internals of each will fit inside the other so it's by no means impossible to use a look-and-feel prototype 2015 body, with 2014 derailleurs - the bits that matter, you can't see ...

The "almost" is because there is a part in the 2015 LH body that has to be missed out to get correct 2014 function.

It is also possible that what we have seen and played with was pre-production, back in Feb 14 ... other changes may have been made that we are not yet party to - but I don't think so.

As stated (and remember, we may be contracted by Campagnolo, but Velotech is a totally independent company) we have TRIED it - i.e. we aren't drinking the Kool Aid, either ... :-)
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
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Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

Calnago wrote:Good info @Graeme_f_k.

I'd like to make a point or two, and ask a couple questions if I may.


Of course :-)

Calnago wrote:So I can see it might help those folks, but so far for me I have not found it be faster at all. I'll keep testing it though as you make refinements.


It's not so much that it is faster, or at least, it is - but not in all circumstances - the circumstance you mention is one (and an important one to some people's way of thinking) but the real benefit is accuracy, repeatability and the ability of some with small and / or weak hands to cleanly shift where they currently struggle.

Calnago wrote:The other thing is, and this is maybe the one area that I really do see some benefits with the electric stuff, is programmability and compatibility backwards and forwards. For instance, I get why 2015 mechanical shifters wont be backwards compatible and why 2014 shifters won't work with the 2015 stuff. No problem there. Things change. But with electric, it is just a button that sends a signal which instructs a derailleur to move a certain distance, etc. So, even though the new front derailleur for EPS will kind of mirror the changes in the new mechanical version, wouldn't it be great if existing EPS shifters do not need to change at all, but rather a simple reprogramming of the "system" would allow them to work with the new derailleurs? And same goes for backwards compatibility moving forward. So long as the same basic mechanical functions are being performed with the only difference being the amount the derailleurs move per button push etc., this should all be able to be programmed as needed. Or maybe that's how it is right now? I don't know, but if it isn't, it should be.


In the case of Shimano, this is how it is now, up to a point - they allow open access through the E-Tube project and the ownership of an interface to the firmware and the user the ability to change some aspects of the programming of the Firmware in all 7 locations in the Di2 system where it is present.

Campagnolo have taken a more cautious approach and so, for instance, the 2015 EPS FDs, which have some changes in the cage design & therefore the FD throw are already in the lookup tables installed in the v2 (internal PU) firmware. The system auto-detects on connection which FD is present and adjusts the action accordingly. Provided the system is switched off during and for 40 sec or so between switches, you can even swap between versions of the FD without issues (though generally we'd not really advise it unless you *need* to - say a damaged FD). Will Campagnolo ever have a free to access FW solution? I hope not, in a way - we have seen problems with users trying to hack Di2 and coming badly unstuck - I spent 2 hrs getting a Di2 system to work again after a user took it into his head to try and hack the code of the firmware - bloody nightmare. We got there in the end but a lot of what you *can* hack in Di2 is really only of interest to the tiniest minority of potential users and I just don't think it's worth it.

Calnago wrote:For me personally, EPS or Di2 is not what I want in a bicycle as it becomes too much like taking your new high tech car to the dealer for a reprogram when anything goes wrong. And if you're going to go electric, there's got to be a lot more benefits to it than there are now, because quite frankly, I'm not seeing any benefits over mechanical at the moment. And those benefits would probably lie in its flexibility in programming for different situations. In fact, as we enter what... 6 or so years since the introduction of Di2 I am noticing early adopters who sang the praises of electric (because it was new) now going back to mechanical for their next purchase. Nothing worse than a component failing miles from nowhere with nothing you can do because it's an electrical fault. Then to get back and find you need a whole new component, and wait, maybe a new processor or whatever, cuz the new stuff is no longer compatible with that old electric stuff, is quite annoying and expensive. That's the situation the latest convert back to mechanical I know of was facing.


In some respects I agree with you - though to some extent Campagnolo have not got this problem so badly as they were fully digital to start with, 11 speed to start with and the small changes that they have made for 2015 were anticipated more than 2 years ago ... hence they don't have all of the same model-range x year compatibility issues at this stage as Shimano.

I wouldn't say component failures are unheard of but they are increasingly rare (for both companies) as the development curve is still quite steep - but yes, I agree, the fact remains that a dead system *might be* a dead system if a catastrophic failure occurs - no argument there.

On the upside, the ability in a race to accurately re-programme the shift to a service rear wheel whilst rolling and to get out of the saddle in confidence or to be able to slam the bike into top gear in the final in confidence (rather than that feeling of having the high gear end stop no longer correctly set, so avoiding top in case you have a chain-jam scenario) is worth it for some users. OK, so we still have a mechanical low-gear end stop on the RD, so you might not be able to get bottom gear - but that would pertain in a mechanical system, too ...
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

Butcher
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by Butcher

Are the connectors the same for a Chorus EPS system and the old Athena EPS system? They appear to be the same and I was wondering if any of the pieces would work with the other system.

Sybarite
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by Sybarite

Graeme, there seems to be 2 versions of the FD, an S2 version, and a non S2. Could you tell us what is the difference between these?

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

I would also like to ask Graeme. Have you tried Rotor Q-rings with Campa SR 2015 FD?
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jooo
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by jooo

graeme_f_k wrote:You may also recall that Ullrich had what were apparently v1 Ergopowers shifting an early 10s rear gear back in the day - not something that was ever offered in commercial form.

Maybe not a great example? Pretty sure these weren't put together by Campagnolo at all. Just a one off by a team mechanic because Ullrich liked the old hood shape more.

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bigfatty
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by bigfatty

I am thinking of purchasing the 2015 Record FD. I have older Campag levers which I will be upgrading to 2015 later this year. Will these older levers work with 2015 FD at least with reasonable performance until I upgrade?

tblairhug1957
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by tblairhug1957

I think they will!

I've been using a new 2015 with 2012 levers, with no problems!

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bigfatty
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by bigfatty

thanks, just what I wanted to hear.

olebole
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by olebole

tblairhug1957 wrote:I think they will!

I've been using a new 2015 with 2012 levers, with no problems!

RD aswell? Just bought a 2015 chorus rd for my older record levers but didn't think of compability issues

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deek
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by deek

I just got a Chorus 11 FD with the long arm. The cable is contacting the FD in the small ring position. I need the cable deviator insert, but it wasn't included in the box. Should it have been included or is this something I can buy?

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