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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:40 am 
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Interesting comparison of some Tour data taken from two on-line articles (800 gram carbon frames (12 2013), steel frames (8 2013)) and one printed article (Ti frames in #9 2014). It would be interesting to compare deflection data but I don't have it for either the carbon article or the steel one.

This sample is biased in favor of the carbon since the carbon frames selected are the lightest, most expensive available, while in steel, for example, a custom builder like Rob English, emphasizing weight, can get lower than most stock steel frames, which have less emphasis on weight. But I think the Crema represents this quite well: only 1512 g for the frame.

Forks are heavier on the steel and Ti bikes, in general, but I am focusing on frames, since forks can be selected, especially with custom steel, which is still a lot cheaper than those carbon bikes.

Image

Result: best carbon is 704, best Ti is 1350, and best steel is 1512. So the cost of Ti is around 646 grams, and the cost of steel around 808 grams, relative to carbon.

808 grams: that's not bad at all. Still within typical daily body mass fluctuations.

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Last edited by djconnel on Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:40 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:09 am 
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Those Ti frames are not representative imho, because they are made with heavier and unknown tubing.
My Lynskey is 1250g and most american ti frames would probably be around that weight for a medium size.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:51 am 
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Antoine:

The Alchemy Eros is a US frame. It may be since Tour uses relatively large frames, with metal that comes with a large per-cm gram cost. Although that frame also has paint, which could be a 50-gram hit.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:54 pm 
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Jee, some of those steel frames are heavy if they're all modern. My 58cm 1988 531c lugged Raleigh is 1865g, and my ten-year-old Cervelo Superprodigy is 1670g (57.5 effective)


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:59 pm 
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My legend is close to Antoine's lynskey, so might be either a size or difference in mfg/tubing used.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:12 am 
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My Baum Corretto is just over 1200g. 565mm top tube, only mild butting of 3/2.5 Ti tubing. My steel (Baum) Ristretto is 1750g, same size.

So agree, those Ti and steel frames seem to be on the heavier side. As neither of my frames were constructed with light weight as an aim.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:22 am 
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My 58cm Sannino (1992) steel frame is 1700g as as most high end steel frames. The fork I use is 329g.

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Last edited by bm0p700f on Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:08 pm 
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The interesting thing about Titanium frames is that over the years, even top end titanium frames have gotten heavier. In the past 20 years or so titanium tube manufacturers have not decreased wall thickness very much while at the same time titanium framebuilders and manufacturers have increased tube diameters significantly.

Compare an older Litespeed, Moots, Merlin, etc titanium frame from the 1990s/2000s that has skinny headtubes with skinny top and down tubes with a Litespeed, Moots, etc titanium frame from 2010s with oversized 44mm headtube, larger 35-38mm top tube and ~45mm downtube. The difference is that the more modern ti frame is heavier! Why? If you compare the wall thickness of old vs new ti frames there isn't much difference.

So, people saying that their Ti frame from 10 yrs ago is 1250 grams doesn't mean much. I bet that those frames don't have oversized 44mm headtubes and their TT and DT aren't comparable to the newer ti tube diameters of about 38mm-ish for a TT and 45mm-ish for a DT.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:45 pm 
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I find the weight of the steel frames kinda heavy, even for their sizes IF modern tubes were used ?

I had a small ( ~52 equivalent) sized 953 tubed frame that came in at 1345g. Upsize it to equivalent cited here, doubt it would be 100g more though.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:18 am 
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bones wrote:
The interesting thing about Titanium frames is that over the years, even top end titanium frames have gotten heavier. In the past 20 years or so titanium tube manufacturers have not decreased wall thickness very much while at the same time titanium framebuilders and manufacturers have increased tube diameters significantly.

Compare an older Litespeed, Moots, Merlin, etc titanium frame from the 1990s/2000s that has skinny headtubes with skinny top and down tubes with a Litespeed, Moots, etc titanium frame from 2010s with oversized 44mm headtube, larger 35-38mm top tube and ~45mm downtube. The difference is that the more modern ti frame is heavier! Why? If you compare the wall thickness of old vs new ti frames there isn't much difference.

So, people saying that their Ti frame from 10 yrs ago is 1250 grams doesn't mean much. I bet that those frames don't have oversized 44mm headtubes and their TT and DT aren't comparable to the newer ti tube diameters of about 38mm-ish for a TT and 45mm-ish for a DT.


There was a time, about ten years ago, when lots of WWs had Litespeed Ghisallos. That frame was the RCA or the Evo of its day. From memory, they were around 900g for a small. But they also grew a reputation for being noodles, at least in the larger sizes. My theory is that Ti manufacturers sort of gave up on weight shortly thereafter because they could no longer compete with carbon.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:32 am 
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+1

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:49 pm 
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bones wrote:
So, people saying that their Ti frame from 10 yrs ago is 1250 grams doesn't mean much. I bet that those frames don't have oversized 44mm headtubes and their TT and DT aren't comparable to the newer ti tube diameters of about 38mm-ish for a TT and 45mm-ish for a DT.

I bet my Ti frame was made 2 years ago. With every tube oversized, bar the headtube (as I wasn't sold on how it proportionally looked with a 44mm HT).

So...

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:28 pm 
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I've got a Merlin CR Works 3/2.5 and I think the claimed weight was 1161 for a medium.
I've never weighed mine stripped, but it seems likely, as I've build it up to less than a pound of my Addicts with similar components.
It is also plenty stiff.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:15 pm 
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I'd take my Ti frame over anything for everyday riding away from the mountains - but mine is straight gauge tubing and probably at the heavier end of the scale.

I've ridden the same frame (Seven) with butted tubing and it simply lacked a little rigidity so I can understand Ti getting heavier. Do people find that the increased tubing diameters impact on the ride quality?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:45 pm 
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It's a balancing act. The Seven, what thickness was the tubing to begin with? What was it butted to.

Oversized tubing at .9mm plain gauge will build up to be more than stiff enough - with the options still to butt for more compliance while still being light (for Ti). I know Darren (Baum) has a ton of charts to show much much heavier a more traditional tubing sized bike will be in order to build it to the same stiffness as one with oversized tubing.

The Aussie World Champ who owns more than one of them never had an issue with stiffness.

From all the bikes I rode, I'd say oversize tubing has given more options to builders - certainly hasn't impacted on rigidity. But other builders (like Seven) may differ in the tubing and methods they use.

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