Shimano 11 speed FD on Campy 11 groupset

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efeballi
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by efeballi

F45 wrote:
efeballi wrote:Didn't use either, but if you're talking about pre-2014 Campy they are most likely incompatible. Shimano increased the cable pull for the FD and also the FD lever arm so the Campy left shifter does not pull enough cable to move the FD far enough.
I've seen a few Shimano 10 speed FDs with Campy systems work OK.


It makes sense to think that the shifter pulls more cable, but I measured the 6800 vs 5700 and the 6800 shifter actually pulls the cable a shorter distance.


Wait. Does this mean I can use the 6800 FD with my 5700 shifter? With limit screws?


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kman
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by kman

Random addition: I'm using a DA 9speed front derailleur with my Chorus crank (just built the bike on the weekend, my front derailleur was clamp/band and I needed a braze on). Works very well, perhaps not as quick as the Chorus one but pretty good.
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F45
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by F45

highdraw wrote:It makes sense to think that the shifter pulls more cable, but I measured the 6800 vs 5700 and the 6800 shifter actually pulls the cable a shorter distance.

Interesting. Any idea what the front derailleur cable pull is for Ultegra 6800?
thanks[/quote]

5.33mm +/- .2mm of cable pull between the derailleur limit screws.

highdraw

by highdraw

Thanks for your response F45.
For a bit further clarity, can you tell us how much cable is pulled per 'each click' of the Ultegra 6800/DA 9000 left shifter that controls the front derailleur?
Thanks again.

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F45
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by F45

Cable movement only:

Start, from big ring max travel - 0mm
From big ring max to reverse trim click ("in" only; no movement on release) - 1.15mm
To push-in click which drops into small ring - 3.9mm
To release of above click - 5.73mm
To next click, which trims small ring ("in" only; no movement on release) - 6.35mm

All +/- 0.1mm.

highdraw

by highdraw

Thanks so much F45. Will measure my Campy bike when I get a chance and compare.
Nice of you to do that for those potentially interested in retrofitting a Shimano long lever FD to a Campy groupset.

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DMF
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by DMF

Does this mean the 11spd Shimano levers have a higher pull ratio at the lever, meaning the lever throw pulls less cable per amount lever movement, but does it more forcefully than 10spd levers. If we would assume calling 10spd levers 1:1 ratio at the lever. Only talking about pull ratio within the lever here.

?

highdraw

by highdraw

DMF,
Pull ratio if speaking just about the lever is an incorrect reference. Pull 'ratio' pertains to the amount of derailleur displacement relative to how much cable is pulled. This is based upon the geometry of derailleur or length of the parallelogram which affects lateral cage displacement relative to how much cable is pulled. So Pull ratio is not specific to just the levers. 1:1 or any ratio specific to a shifter doesn't exist. You could think of the ratio of lever displacement relative to how much cable is pulled as a ratio, but this is irrelevant because it depends what point you are referring to along the lever.
What is referred to specific to shifters alone, is the simple reference of cable pull....or cable pull per shift or per click.
Perhaps you are referring to this comparison to Shimano 10s. Also btw, cable pull does not have to be linear or the same shift to shift and in fact it many times isn't. This means the detent wheel inside the shifter isn't symmetric, detents have different spacing which affects how much cable is pulled per click.

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DMF
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by DMF

I would actually be so inclined to argue that you could say there is a pull ratio within the lever, the ratio stands between how far the lever is pushed versus how much cable is being pulled. This ratio could even be variable throughout the levers effective motion. Try thinking of it the same way as brake levers have a pull ratio that need to be matched to the brake (i.e 3:1-ratio for most road/canti brakes, 4:1-ratio for the new Shimano stuff and something completely else for V-brakes).

So my question was sort of what the difference is between 10spd and 11spd FD's, may it even be a variable pull ratio within the lever to match the variable pull ratio of the FD itself?

highdraw

by highdraw

And your argument DMF would be without merit :) or rather confound any relevant discussion about installing a Shimano FD on a Campy bike with Ultrashift. It isn't about paddle stroke relative to cable pull or ratio in that context because total paddle stroke will be different between all three manufactures. But rather how much cable is pulled per each paddle click. Ratio is relevant with respect to how much the front derailleur traverses laterally relative to how much cable is pulled. That is the proper reference of pull 'ratio'. So each shifter type pulls a different amount of cable per click and that amount of cable pull displaces a given derailleur laterally a given amount.

But yes, leaving the word ratio out when talking about shifters, a shifter can pull a variable length of cable click to click. This is certainly true of Campy rear derailleurs (right shifter) for example and new DA9000/Ultegra 6800...both have graduated cable pull shifters for rear derailleurs.

More needs to be learned about Campy left shifter cable pull to learn true compatibility with a new DA/Ultegra front derailleur with longer lever. Of course it will work because a Campy left shifter will pull a lot of cable with enough of a lever push(s). Question is....is it better than using the Campy FD with Campy Ultrashifter(s) and those that have tried it here say no which kind of makes sense. Effort 'may' be slightly reduced but the cable pull of the Campy left shifter doesn't line up with a Shimano FD as well as a Campy FD and it may be related to how the left shifters differ in variable cable pull click to click as well.

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