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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:43 am 
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Location: Adelaide, Australia
I was wondering if anybody is using one of the new Shimano FDs on their Campag groupset and having good results. I was wondering if it would produce better shifting, but then again there's not too much wrong with the campag stuff (Doesn't shift quite as well underload but mostly fine). Anyone have any experiences they want to chime in with?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:19 pm 
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Didn't use either, but if you're talking about pre-2014 Campy they are most likely incompatible. Shimano increased the cable pull for the FD and also the FD lever arm so the Campy left shifter does not pull enough cable to move the FD far enough.
I've seen a few Shimano 10 speed FDs with Campy systems work OK.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:10 pm 
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It works perfectly for me! Theres not much for trim position though, its much easier to pull on the big lever arm.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:43 am 
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Why?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:57 am 
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Location: Adelaide, Australia
The new shimano front shifting is brilliant. I was wondering if that's down to the FD. I find Campy shifting a little lacking tbh, especially when dropping it onto the small ring under load.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:40 pm 
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Most know that Campy is going to the longer lever FD for 2015 Chorus and Record.
Does beg the question though for those with current Campy and I believe Athena 11s will not change their FD for 2015 or at least as currently reported...maybe putting an Ultegra 6800/DA9000 FD on a Campy bike would improve FD shift effort as Campy FD efforts are higher than new 11s Shimano with longer FD lever. So it comes down to just how compatible the cable pull is between Shimano new 11s FD and current Campy.

Shimano did revise their front and rear cable pull for both left and right shifters when they released new 11s. Can somebody measure the cable pull for the left shifter for either Ultegra 6800 or DA 9000? I believe Shimano reduced cable pull for their rear derailleur at least...I heard 1.3mm per shift which seems quite low compared to all current groupsets out there. Intuitively, it would seem as mentioned above, a longer cable pull would be required in front for the longer lever as there is more travel from a longer lever end to pivot point to traverse the FD. So wonder what Shimano's 11s front cable pull is for the new longer lever FD?

I would like to try an Ultegra 6800 front derailleur on my Campy bike and at least one poster suggested it works...but wondered how much more throw is required or even a couple of lever pushes to achieve enough cable pull? If somebody would measure the FD pull of their 6800 or 9000 this would help understand compatibility with Campy's left shifter. I can measure my Campy left shifter for comparison. I know Campy pulls 2.5/2.8mm in the rear...cable pull varies up the cassette...bigger cogs have more cable pull. Not sure about cable pull in the front.

Thanks for any further help on cable pull for the Shimano 11s front derailleur.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:02 pm 
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I've been using FD6800 with Athena 11 shifters (Shimano Tiagra standard chainrings) on the winter bike. It works all right, nowhere near as smooth and easy as with actual 5800/6800/9000 shifters (I've tried them all), but I'd say on par with a Campy setup. You don't seem to take any advantage of the longer arm on the FD but you can still use it as the Campy shifter (Athena) has all the micro steps.

Did it just to try it, if I would do it again? Nah, seems pointless.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:07 pm 
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DMF wrote:
I've been using FD6800 with Athena 11 shifters (Shimano Tiagra standard chainrings) on the winter bike. It works all right, nowhere near as smooth and easy as with actual 5800/6800/9000 shifters (I've tried them all), but I'd say on par with a Campy setup. You don't seem to take any advantage of the longer arm on the FD but you can still use it as the Campy shifter (Athena) has all the micro steps.

Did it just to try it, if I would do it again? Nah, seems pointless.

Thanks DMF for sharing your experience.
You didn't mention any effort improvement I would expect with the longer 6800 FD lever arm.
My thought would be a lower shift effort would result because of increase mechanical advantage of a longer FD lever arm, but greater lever push would be required to effectuate a shift from small to big ring.

Doesn't sound like theory measures up to practice.
Thanks


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:36 pm 
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Looking at the actual geometry of the Shimano 11 FD's its really not as basic as just a longer leverage arm, you have to take into account the entrance angle of the cable in relation to the arms pivot point, and how that varies massively throughout the leverage arms range of motion when going from one gear to the other. I suspect this is why you don't see much improvement with a non-matching pull ratio shifter, but that's just a guess on my behalf...

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:32 pm 
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DMF wrote:
Looking at the actual geometry of the Shimano 11 FD's its really not as basic as just a longer leverage arm, you have to take into account the entrance angle of the cable in relation to the arms pivot point, and how that varies massively throughout the leverage arms range of motion when going from one gear to the other. I suspect this is why you don't see much improvement with a non-matching pull ratio shifter, but that's just a guess on my behalf...

Very good point about angle of attack of the cable. Actual leverage may not be that dissimilar for initial lever pivot in particular and as the lever arm pivots more, effective lever length increases dramatically as you say.
Thanks for your thoughts.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:36 pm 
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Its actually quite ingenious, as the cage moves more per amount of hand motion at the shifter lever when there's little resistance at the beginning of the cages motion, before the chain gets all squished up and creates a lot of resistance, at the middle and towards the end of the cages range of motion, where the leverage ratio shifts to provide more force rather than long stroke applied to the cage pushing the chain. Fairly bright thinking on Shimano's behalf...

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:21 pm 
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DMF wrote:
Its actually quite ingenious, as the cage moves more per amount of hand motion at the shifter lever when there's little resistance at the beginning of the cages motion, before the chain gets all squished up and creates a lot of resistance, at the middle and towards the end of the cages range of motion, where the leverage ratio shifts to provide more force rather than long stroke applied to the cage pushing the chain. Fairly bright thinking on Shimano's behalf...

Didn't Sram come out with the long lever FD design 'with yaw' first? :wink:
Yes, you make further good thoughts. Mechanical advantage increases due to more effective lever length relative to line of pull as the cage starts to do the heavy lifting...sine of the angle.
Thanks.
PS: Two other innovative aspects of Shimano's FD are the 2 position pinch bolt based upon line of pull and the pin that props against the seat tube for stability. Combine all that with a change in yaw angle like Sram does for 0 trim and now you hit the jackpot. When I rode the new Shimano DA front derailleur I thought the trim was excellent...very rarely needed further trim on the big cog in back.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:30 pm 
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highdraw wrote:
Didn't Sram come out with the long lever FD design 'with yaw' first? :wink:


No. Yaw was the same 'short lever' as their other derailleurs.

The new shimano/campag ones are close to 2x as long.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:18 pm 
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efeballi wrote:
Didn't use either, but if you're talking about pre-2014 Campy they are most likely incompatible. Shimano increased the cable pull for the FD and also the FD lever arm so the Campy left shifter does not pull enough cable to move the FD far enough.
I've seen a few Shimano 10 speed FDs with Campy systems work OK.


It makes sense to think that the shifter pulls more cable, but I measured the 6800 vs 5700 and the 6800 shifter actually pulls the cable a shorter distance.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:05 pm 
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F45 wrote:
efeballi wrote:
Didn't use either, but if you're talking about pre-2014 Campy they are most likely incompatible. Shimano increased the cable pull for the FD and also the FD lever arm so the Campy left shifter does not pull enough cable to move the FD far enough.
I've seen a few Shimano 10 speed FDs with Campy systems work OK.


It makes sense to think that the shifter pulls more cable, but I measured the 6800 vs 5700 and the 6800 shifter actually pulls the cable a shorter distance.

Interesting. Any idea what the front derailleur cable pull is for Ultegra 6800?
thanks


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