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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:02 pm 
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I also have spoken to a guy who thought that the whole 'McLaren' thing was a bunch of B.S., but he is an engineer at Specialized (this was the Venge, I'm talking about, though). They were pretty confident in the original design. Turns out that he (and many others) were very surprised at what McLaren did with carbon fibre. It would not surprise me to hear that the McLaren layup is significantly stiffer than the stock layup without being heavier (which is all that matters to the Pros).


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:46 pm 
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Geoff wrote:
It would not surprise me to hear that the McLaren layup is significantly stiffer than the stock layup without being heavier (which is all that matters to the Pros).


if i remember correctly the mclaren venge came out heavier (stiffer, but still heavier) than the stock venge. it was a joke, just as this is a joke. ax-lightness vial evo is almost 200g lighter and just as stiff where it needs to be; im sure a pro would have no problem with an vial evo. So what does that say about the mclaren and specialized engineers? maybe they should hire ax-lightness to redesign/maximize the carbon structure in their hypercars and crazy overpriced bikes?. its a case of dont give the people too much too soon, so you can improve on what you already have, then they can repackage it and sell it as the next coming.

Take a ducati 1199 the cost is $19,000. they also have an S and R with better suspension and slightly upgraded engine internals for $24,000 and $32,000. now comes the 1199 superleggera for $65,000. basically an R with a few material changes. they doubled the price and made it limited to 500 bikes. everyone knows, that for the money, these bikes arent worth it. my friend bought into the desmosedici which was $75,000 - the bike sucked!!! it sounded great, but it sucked on the track.

people will always buy thses limited bikes/bicycles. they have no real value over their counterparts, but it appeals to some, who cant see past what they are - mostly marketing.


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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:46 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:28 pm 
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Did the bike suck or was it just too much for him? I doubt that anyone but the absolute best of amateur riders could handle a Desmo, buying one's just an exercise in vanity.

That's the good thing about cycling, for top end bikes that actually do what they say on the tin any amateur rider can get the same benefit as the pro's.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:48 pm 
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No need to quote the above


he is an amateur, but i was doing about 15 track days a summer with him, he was doing well over 50 a year plus races. it sucked because with his 1098R he could go faster easier as well as with his R6 race bike. i followed him on my 1198 and it just didnt look like he was riding it as well as the other bikes. plus guys who ride semi pro and ama sbk tried it out - not that they were pushing on a bike that was expensive and not theirs, but they werent fast and didnt like the way the bike went around.

but i actually like the desmo... its almost a motogp replica, it looks great and sounds amazing, best sounding bike i have ever heard (besides a motogp bike at laguna).

they made a bunch of desmos... 1500 of them. at one point you could get them for 50k brand new. i would actually buy this bike, its such a cool bike.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:58 pm 
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spytech wrote:
Geoff wrote:
It would not surprise me to hear that the McLaren layup is significantly stiffer than the stock layup without being heavier (which is all that matters to the Pros).


if i remember correctly the mclaren venge came out heavier (stiffer, but still heavier) than the stock venge. it was a joke, just as this is a joke. ax-lightness vial evo is almost 200g lighter and just as stiff where it needs to be; im sure a pro would have no problem with an vial evo. So what does that say about the mclaren and specialized engineers? maybe they should hire ax-lightness to redesign/maximize the carbon structure in their hypercars and crazy overpriced bikes?. its a case of dont give the people too much too soon, so you can improve on what you already have, then they can repackage it and sell it as the next coming.

Take a ducati 1199 the cost is $19,000. they also have an S and R with better suspension and slightly upgraded engine internals for $24,000 and $32,000. now comes the 1199 superleggera for $65,000. basically an R with a few material changes. they doubled the price and made it limited to 500 bikes. everyone knows, that for the money, these bikes arent worth it. my friend bought into the desmosedici which was $75,000 - the bike sucked!!! it sounded great, but it sucked on the track.

people will always buy thses limited bikes/bicycles. they have no real value over their counterparts, but it appeals to some, who cant see past what they are - mostly marketing.


The price is obviously extreme and high, but Specialized has never tried to make the lightest bike, they try to make the best riding bike. They don't seem to care that the bike isn't competing with the lightest frame sets out there, and only few people, or maybe the pro's would really be able to tell or feel how much different a McLaren 12R carbon is going to ride and compare to an S-Works 11R. Of course a slight bit stiffer (10% or whatever) doesn't justify 10k more for a McLaren. As a consumer in general, it would have been nice if they had additional selling points or features, built at McLaren exclusively, much lighter frame weight, etc. What I would like to see is a white paper from Spesh similar to what Cervelo did with the RCA. As you mentioned, many of the McLaren Venge frame sets were actually heavier than reported and the same or heavier than the S-Works. Spesh really didn't have a good answer when everyone asked why? I really like how Cervelo mentioned in their white paper, how they bought different frames from all manufactures, and actually weighed them showing the min, max, and avg. The proof should be in the data, so it would be nice to see more of it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:55 pm 
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@spytech, I think that the McLaren version is lighter, but by less than 100g. Specialized never tried to make a big deal of lighter weight but, rather, stuck to the stiffness-to-weigh ratio story. As an exercise, the 'rules' were apparently that McLaren had to stick with the same carbon fibre and the stock production facility. I guess a limited-production offering is a good way to get your R&D paid for...


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:07 pm 
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This mclaren version is lighter, but not the venge. and its much less than 100g, more like 30g and even that might be optimistic! but again, i can point to other bikes that have a higher STW ratio than this bike and do not cost what this bike cost. i think its a joke and the only way to make this bike attractive to people with deep pockets, is to create a limited numbered version and sell it for a ridiculous price. whats so limited about it? they make it in the same place out of the same materials by the same people. why not make all their tarmacs like this? marketing is a powerful thing.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:49 pm 
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I would assume that since the mclaren frame is a similar weight as the specialized one, the end result from the mclaren engineers would be a stiffer and more durable frame. The comment about AX lightness engineers weighing in on mclarens designs because they have shown to have made a lighter frame is relevant, however I would also assume that the mclaren engineers used pretty rigorous safety factors in their designs (hence the high weight) and no disrespect intended to engineers or 'engineers' that make carbon frames, the low weights may result in lack of short or long term durability of the chassis. This is not always the case as we have seen even in the pro peloton frames lighter than this mclaren which leads me to believe that, like pinarello, the engineers probably used as much material as they felt like they needed since the bike would have to be built to a weight limit anyway. So is it a joke? I don't know, if the specialized engineers learned something from the process then it was probably useful. Also selling them allows for PR opportunity and for the frame to be used in pro racing.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:13 am 
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mountainlion wrote:
I would assume that since the mclaren frame is a similar weight as the specialized one, the end result from the mclaren engineers would be a stiffer and more durable frame. The comment about AX lightness engineers weighing in on mclarens designs because they have shown to have made a lighter frame is relevant, however I would also assume that the mclaren engineers used pretty rigorous safety factors in their designs (hence the high weight) and no disrespect intended to engineers or 'engineers' that make carbon frames, the low weights may result in lack of short or long term durability of the chassis. This is not always the case as we have seen even in the pro peloton frames lighter than this mclaren which leads me to believe that, like pinarello, the engineers probably used as much material as they felt like they needed since the bike would have to be built to a weight limit anyway. So is it a joke? I don't know, if the specialized engineers learned something from the process then it was probably useful. Also selling them allows for PR opportunity and for the frame to be used in pro racing.


rigorous safety factors??? what are you talking about? did you see contadors frame in the tour - oh snap!!! any frame will break if you fall and hit it right. the ax-lightness and the trek emonda SLR (690g) will pass the same test as the specialized mclaren will and the the trek has a weight limit of 270 or 290lbs. you can make a lighter stronger frame if designed correctly, which is the point, this is the same tarmac with some pretty paint and a marketing spin to make people like you drink the koolade. i think the PR/marketing has gotten to you. ladies and gents with have another victim, hows that specialized koolade?. they had to build this frame and sell it for 20k in order to learn? you are far gone. i bet you believe carbon frames are made of super or very Ultra HM Fibers...? lol

btw, ive seen test on the tarmac and BB stiffness on this bike is already better than most, why didnt they keep the stiffness and get to a lower target weight, it just doesnt add up. if everyone builds a light frame and they are safe, the uci might reconsider the weight limit and lower it, then we have a weight war. thats a win for us, that would have been something i could stand by. i kinda like the tarmac, but i think this bike is absurd.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:20 am 
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We have already established the frame that snapped was not Contadors during his particular crash and that it took a car to do that. No defense for Specialized frames here, or their marketing; just a fact after how out of hand the whole bike snapping crash rumor got.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:23 am 
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itsacarr wrote:
We have already established the frame that snapped was not Contadors during his particular crash and that it took a car to do that. No defense for Specialized frames here, or their marketing; just a fact after how out of hand the whole bike snapping crash rumor got.


understood... thats why i said, if ANY bike was HIT right it would break.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:40 am 
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Im surprised there isn't dash cam footage of the bike snapping lol - that must have been a wicked sound.

Regarding the McLaren though - even if it was indestructible that's an impressive price tag.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:09 am 
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I worked at Renault F1 from 2006 to 2008. The factory had a deal with the distributors of Marin and Wilier in the UK. One day during a factory trade show (held at the F1 factory) senior engineers and designers looked at the Wilier carbon frames and they were amazed at the fabrication quality and cost of them. "There is no way we could create that for the same money".

Granted they were just going on external appearance but I always thought it was an interesting comment.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:38 am 
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Well, I'll tell ya, it's no joke. For an aero bike it sure is stiff as hell. I am not that keen on the Venge geometry, but it is still rideable. Anyway, I'm not sure I'll end-up with a McLaren Tarmac, but you never know...


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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:38 am 


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:06 am 
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Rush wrote:
I worked at Renault F1 from 2006 to 2008. The factory had a deal with the distributors of Marin and Wilier in the UK. One day during a factory trade show (held at the F1 factory) senior engineers and designers looked at the Wilier carbon frames and they were amazed at the fabrication quality and cost of them. "There is no way we could create that for the same money".

Granted they were just going on external appearance but I always thought it was an interesting comment.


Is it an economies of scale thing?


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