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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:16 am 
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Location: Toronto, Canada
Roughly the same on a felt or s3 with normal brakes


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:35 am 
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Location: the Netherlands
Quote:
I had an S5 and that does not handle/corner as well, is not as comfortable and is not as stiff in the front as my propel. I have not tried the new S3 but based on the size of the tubes it would most likely fix all the issues I had with the S5.


+ 1 on the S5 and the new S3 imho. is a better ride.
The propel might be one generation behind in "aero" but overall it is a better riding bike and don't forget Giant makes loads of framesets for other manyfacturers and "borrows" technology from them as well.
If ts likes the aero look most of the mentioned frames will work but still doubt if most riders will trace any difference at all with other top levell frameset that are less aero.
by the way If someone that races would ask me what would be a good follow up for the mentioned Systemsix I would say Caad10.


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Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:35 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:55 am 
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Location: Australia
53x12 wrote:
Since you are considering a Propel, it seems you are at least somewhat interest in aero. If that is the case, why pick a slow aero frame and not the fastest? If you want an aero road bike, you might as well pick a fast frame. Cervelo S5 VWD, '14 Cervelo S3 or '14 Felt AR. Nothing else will be faster when you compare and look at the various data out there. .


Hi, do you have any cross reference for this?

E.g. http://www.aeroweenie.com/assets/img/data/giant.png

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/backoffi ... st_low.pdf

Cheers!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:21 am 
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Location: Australia
Funnily enough, the felt white paper http://www.aeroweenie.com/assets/backup ... elt-AR.pdf has the Cervelo way ahead of the propel (and of course, the felt out in front of these two)

Which data set do you trust? (None have standard errors - does this mean that the experiment wasn't replicated, the error bars were too small or they just didn't put them in?)

Which data set measures with a rider riding on the frame? (I think it's fair enough to assume that there are ideas interactions between rider and frame)

How do the measurements change with aero wheel set (808) fitted vs non-aero (open pro/32s)? Does wheel set affect the wY air flows over the frame and therefore drag?

When will the next cervelo s iteration be released (s7??)


Just thinking out loud.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:53 pm 
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Illuminate wrote:
Funnily enough, the felt white paper http://www.aeroweenie.com/assets/backup ... elt-AR.pdf has the Cervelo way ahead of the propel (and of course, the felt out in front of these two)


One problem I see is they post wind tunnel data is for a 30mph sweep. They make the statement that for calculating time savings "we used a weighted average with an emphasis placed on more common angles of attack such as 10, 12.5 and 15 degrees. The weights were derived from our experience of aerodynamic testing in the wind tunnel and real world." My understanding is that at 30mph the majority of yaw angles atre under 10 degrees. Obviously if you run a simulation using higher yaw angles it will exaggerate the aerodynamic savings. Now, maybe these higher yaw angles were modeled at lower speeds (which would be more reasonable) but they aren't being clear about what sort of speeds they use in their simulation. If they're just assuming somebody can average 30mph for an hour well that's not terribly reasonable outside of the pro ranks...


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:45 pm 
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Every manufacturer will claim they are more aero than the other. The right wheels, bar, and positioning will make all the difference :)

Weight/stiffness doesn't seem to be as much of a concern for your riding...but the Propel Adv SL will be worlds lighter than the Cervelo (not sure about the Felt). With OverDrive2 it will be much stiffer up front and in the BB as well.

Trust me, I know ;-)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:01 am 
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"Every manufacturer will claim they are more aero than the other. The right wheels, bar, and positioning will make all the difference :)"


Felt admits that the Cervelo S5 is the fastest frame that they (Felt) have tested in the -5-0-5 sweep. Even independent tests confirm that Cervelos are fast frames and that others have to play catch up.

You can still have the right wheels, bar and positioning on one of the fastest frames (S5 or AR). They aren't mutually exclusive.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Weight/stiffness doesn't seem to be as much of a concern for your riding...but the Propel Adv SL will be worlds lighter than the Cervelo (not sure about the Felt). With OverDrive2 it will be much stiffer up front and in the BB as well."



S5 VWD comes in around 940-960g from what I have seen. Isn't that around the same weight as the Giant?

The Felt AR FRD is significantly lighter than both coming in at around 905-910g. Plus it is much stiffer than either the Cervelo or the Giant. The Felt AR FRD would be my choice with no limit on build cost and all out. If I had to be responsible I would do either the Cervelo S3 or the Felt AR1.

But the AR FRD is a generation ahead of the Giant.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:21 am 
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53x12 wrote:
You can still have the right wheels, bar and positioning on one of the fastest frames (S5 or AR). They aren't mutually exclusive.


Yup, exactly my point.

53x12 wrote:
S5 VWD comes in around 940-960g from what I have seen.


Ha, maybe for an XS size.


To the OP, best of luck with your decision! Try to ride both (if possible) before you decide. Don't listen to myself, the Lead Designer for Giant's road products...or the other guys, haha. It's all about what feels best for YOU :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:58 am 
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Ahillock wrote:
The Propel is at least a generation behind the S5/new S3 and the new AR...

I personally wouldn't even mess with the Propel. I would go with a Felt or Cervelo. They are the leaders in aero frames.


I'm a Cervelo fanboy (own/love S5) and the Felt looks amazing. However the above statement is pure nonsense. The Propel came out after the S5 and borrowed a lot of the ideas, introduced 'integrated' brakes (for better or worse), has better tire clearance and must have improved handling.

Propel more aero than S5? Possibly
Propel more aero than AR? Possibly
Propel more aero than S3? Probably


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:41 am 
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Location: Queensland Australia
Go the Propel or the Felt.
Here in Oz, the Giant is great value for Money.

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2013 Giant TCR Advanced SL 0, 6.92kg
2013 Giant Defy Composite 2 M, 8.5kg - Wife's
Azzurro Torino 8.55g
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:40 am 
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Location: by Crystal Springs (Sawyer Creek Trail)
Propel is slower than the S5. This is fact. Whether or not it is slower than the AR, still remains to be seen, but it's highly likely. Integrated brakes don't do jiggly squat when your brake cable is sticking out so far.

And all this talk of stiffness. The new S3 is a seriously stiff bike. On the same level of the AR FRD


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:28 am 
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Location: Toronto, Canada
I am not sure how many of you have had an s5 and also have had a propel but I have.

The propel has a way wider steerer so it will not be as aero as it is wider all around. The tubes are also not as deep.

How ever the propel is just about as aero if not equal, handles better, you can turn the handlebars without damaging the frame or fork and it is much more pleasant in cross winds than the s5.

They are also amazing value for the money, especially if you get the version with the regular seat post.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:00 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:06 pm
Posts: 88
Location: NC, USA
ajh - which bike do you ride more, the Propel or the S5?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:52 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:30 am
Posts: 277
dynaserve wrote:
Ahillock wrote:
The Propel is at least a generation behind the S5/new S3 and the new AR...

I personally wouldn't even mess with the Propel. I would go with a Felt or Cervelo. They are the leaders in aero frames.


I'm a Cervelo fanboy (own/love S5) and the Felt looks amazing. However the above statement is pure nonsense. The Propel came out after the S5 and borrowed a lot of the ideas, introduced 'integrated' brakes (for better or worse), has better tire clearance and must have improved handling.

Propel more aero than S5? Possibly
Propel more aero than AR? Possibly
Propel more aero than S3? Probably



This is just pure nonsense. Do you have any non-Giant data to support your assertion? I have non-Cervelo data to support mine. Don't have non-Felt data yet as it is still fairly new to market.


S5 more aero than Propel? Yes
AR more areo than Propel? Probably
S3 more aero than Propel? Possibly (only 40g less aero than S5)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:07 pm 
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Location: Toronto, Canada
I sold the S5 after I got the Propel

I like it more as it corners/handles better and is more comfortable so my back is not as sore after 100mile rides.

I have beaten KOMs set on the s5 so they are equally as fast for me

I imagine I would also like the s3 but it was released after I ordered the propel


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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:07 pm 


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