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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:30 pm 
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I have the 11 speed Record Ultra Torque cranks and wanted to pull them off. I took out the 10mm allen bolt from the middle of the bb. Now what? I have press fit bearings (not cups). I also don't have the safety pin on the drive side that I see referenced all the time that needs to be removed. They seem like they should just come apart like an Oreo....but they don't. Thanks for the help!


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Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:30 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:39 pm 
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Location: Welland, Ontario
If the clip on the DS is not there then they were not correctly installed. I would double check.

It just takes a GENTLE SMALL wiggling while pulling to remove each side. The bearings are a close fit in the cups. Normally some grease should have been used in the cup. If there was no grease and they've been subjected to a lot of rough weather, then I can see that maybe some corrosion is holding things up. If that's the case then some light penetrating oil may be needed.

The type of cups is irrelevant to this. All UT cranks have the bearings press-fitted to the spindle. The bearings then seat into cups which are specific to the type of BB shell your frame has. ALL require a clip on the DS, and a wave washer on the NDS.

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There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:54 pm 
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Thanks for the feedback! I am assuming that the clip should be visible...and it's not. The cranks are on a 2013 Trek Madone...if that makes any difference.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:02 pm 
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Yeah, a little wiggling "should" do the trick, but I've had one case where they were really stuck and corroded to the cups from use in terrible weather. Had to do some serious soaking in penetrating oil to loosen things up.
The C-clip is there for installation purposes and holds the crank in place while lining up the two sides and prevents the accidental pushing out of the expensive drive side crank and dropping it out. Once it's installed it doesn't do much, kinda like the top cap on stems. Once a bit of compression is applied and the stem tightened to the steertube you could completely remove the top cap if desired.
A proper Campagnolo UT installation on a Trek BB90 bottom bracket for example does not even use the C-clip at all.

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C59 Five Years Later
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:08 pm 
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My understanding is that the clip is more than a retaining spring for assembly. It prevents the whole crank from moving to the drive side by compressing the wavy washer.

Sometimes with the centre-bolt removed, the hirth joint resists slightly. If you apply gentle counter-pressure on the cranks then it can dislodge it.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:19 pm 
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I would put a rag over the non-drive side crank arm and give it a gentle tap at the bottom bracket with a rubber mallet.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:24 pm 
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Location: Reading, UK
I'm with Calnago on the function of that clip, I don't think it does anything to compress the wavy washer.
I must also confess to rubber mallet use on my winter bike's cranks...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:27 pm 
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Location: Surrey, England
I have one set which seems to be quite stiff, gentle back and worth movement on the cracks at end of each tends to slowly work it loose.

+1 for c clip for install purposes, don't bother with them on mine as so fiddly to get off with P2M spider


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:37 pm 
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From Campag UK - Graeme Firestone King:

"I'd avoid riding without as it will allow the chainset to float left and right against the preload of the wavy washer, affecting the FD shifting."

Hope its ok to quote you Graeme - I know how busy you are !


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:39 pm 
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Location: Welland, Ontario
The function of the clip is widely misunderstood, I suspect because of the way it is dealt with in the assembly instructions.

The clip holds the DS bearing, and therefore the crank firmly in place. Hence also the reason for the circlip on the spindle holding the DS bearing in place. The wave washer is to provide some minor side load to the NDS bearing.

It is analogous to the GXP system which does the same thing but holds the NDS side of the crank firmly in place.

If the clip is not installed, the symptom is a clicking under load, standing, as the crank moves a little side to side.

Nothing will break, and the amount of clicking will depend on the frame dimensional tolerances.

But that what it's for.

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:04 am 
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+1 bikerjulio and ghisallo2003 ... the clip most definiely does serve exactly the function bikerjulio & I describe in our respective posts (thanks for digging out the quote, ghisallo2003 ... and you are right, my friend, it's "pretty mental" in and out of the workshop just now!)

The function of the drive-side external clip is the reason that the RH bearing is retained with a c-clip - the ends of the clip drop in between the bearing and the outer lip seal and prevent more than 0.25 mm or so of lateral movement.

If you have gotten away without the clip with no degradation of function of the front shift, bogusdogs, and with no noise from the BB, this suggests that you may have a frame slightly over spec for effective BB width, or maybe that you are a very, very smooth pedaller and don't side-load the BB assembly significantly - however, I'd still fit the clip when you reassemble!

A third possibility is, I suppose, that some lunatic has done the "wavywasherectomy" described by RogueBikeMechanic - in which case I'd take a very, very careful look at the condition of the Hirth Joint ...

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:08 am 
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Ok, I respect bikerjulios and Graemes comments but someone should then inform Campagnolo NA and Trek, because I went back and forth between them on this issue. Campagnolo NA told me over the phone pretty much exactly what I wrote, and if it was so important I don't think a company like Trek would risk omitting it entirely. Perhaps there may have been a misunderstanding on the phone with Campy NA but I don't think so. But there was certainly no misunderstanding in my discussions with Trek, and they explicity do not use the outer clip. And I've never heard of a Trek and Campy installation that wasn't working properly up front.
Graeme, I completely agree that if the outer clip was serving any function other than making installation easier then severe pedaling etc, should indeed cause the chain to be at least rubbing a bit on a closely adjusted front derailleur. I am a big guy and can say I have not heard the slightest rub during all out sprints or steep climbing. It works exactly the way it does with the clip installed. I'm not advocating throwing it away and it is installed on all my bikes except for the Trek Emonda.
So somewhere there is a disconnect in the information being provided. I don't think a company as big as Trek would risk a lawsuit because of somebody wrecking himself due to some chain flying off or whatnot due to lateral movement of the crankset. Just sayin. Especially since if what you say is true it would be a no brainer to hold Trek liable if such an occurrence happened.
I remember when I first started installing UltraTorque and thought exactly the same thing... If the wavy washer is doing its job then there is no need for that outer clip once installed. If the clip is necessary for the reasons you state, then the wavy washer isn't strong enough to do its job correctly. And as for the bottom brackets possibly being slightly oversized beyond spec, I hear what you're saying but I can assure you they are not. I've faced and measured everything myself and with or without the outer c-clip, it works exactly the same.

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:03 am 
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Maybe Campagnolo NA and Trek need to watch the installation video from Campagnolo. At about 6:14 they specifically install the c-clip.
http://www.campagnolo.com/AU/en/Support ... e_crankset

Perhaps these people are wrong too.
https://youtu.be/Kxvaclp0wtE

It appears Park Tool is wrong too
http://www.parktool.com/blog/calvins-co ... cord-group

Even the Campagnolo installation instructions show it on page 4.
http://www.campagnolo.com/AU/en/Support/download?td=4

As for Trek...when did they become the experts in Campagnolo? I honestly didn't even know they offered a bike with it. I know I have been running Ultratorque since 2007 and the clip is always installed. Everywhere I looked showed explicitly that the c-clip is installed.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:21 am 
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No one is saying it's "wrong". I always install it whenever possible. All I'm wondering is it's true purpose. Especially when the Trek installation of Campy UT explicitly excludes it. And no one is saying Trek are the Campagnolo experts either. But they would certainly be exposing themselves to some serious liability if someone had a serious accident due to not using it.
Until a very short while ago, you could order a Project One Trek with Campagnolo the same as you could order it with a Shimano or Sram. I'd like to know how many Trek (BB90)/Campagnolo users are having issues with their cranks installed without the C-clip.

_________________
Colnago C60 - PR99
C59 Five Years Later
My Special Colnago EPQ
Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR


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Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:21 am 


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:08 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:15 pm
Posts: 79
bikerjulio wrote:
If the clip on the DS is not there then they were not correctly installed. I would double check.



On my P2M I can't fit the safety clip, if I do it grabs the crank (not allowing it to spin), the wave washer is installed, correct torque is applied not sure what it can be


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