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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:49 am 
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Posts: 29
Hello everyone,

I too have ordered and await a new Vial Evo frame. I wish to transfer my Super Record groupset onto this frame. This means using my existing Ultra Torque crankset with 24mm spindle. I know the new OverTorque cranks are 386 compatible but I do not want the additional expense of buying yet another upgrade part regardless of weight saving,convenience etc.

As Nils from AX Lightness has explained to me the Vial Evo frame is prepared with the bottom bracket bearing seats integrated. This means the bearings fit direct to the frame. What this means is the bottom bracket dimensions are 42mm not the usual 46mm found on other 386 bottom brackets.

The following text is copied from the AX Lightness website: In contrast to usual BB386 frames we deliberately rely on directly integrated and laminated carbon bearing seats and therewith bypass all typical nylon or aluminum bearing shells: The ball bearings are pressed directly into the frame and thus save a further 30+ grams over conventional PressFit solutions.

Now the only adaptor I have found for fitting a Campagnolo Ultra Torque to 386 has a 46mm outside dimeter and obviously this will not work with the Evo. So if anyone out there has any ideas please help. I have researched as much as I can and haven't found any clear solutions to this problem. I'm not sure if it would be possible to remove the Campagnolo bearings and try fitting the crankset in the same way one would fit a Shimano, SRAM or other brand.

Thanks


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:20 pm 
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Location: Toronto
You have an interesting problem.

Firstly let me correct one wrong statement of yours which further complicates the issue - the Campy spindle is 25mm diameter, not 24.

Back to the frame.

The BB width is 86 which is the same as a 68mm BB with outboard cups. And the bearings are in the outboard location, exactly where the Campy bearing are now.

Something has to give, so since the bearings are bonded into the frame, it would seem that the Campy bearings have to be removed.

I think I can say almost for certain that there is no adapter made that's going to do what you want, which is to sleeve down from 30mm bearing dia to 25mm spindle dia.

My only suggestion at this point is to have an aluminium sleeve made to fit over the crank spindle, that's 25mm ID and 30mm OD and 86mm long. This would seem to be the simplest solution

You can then use whatever combination of spacers and wave washer are needed to prevent any play.

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:20 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:35 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 12:21 pm
Posts: 71
Location: UK
Hi there

What you need to determine is whether the bearing seats are machined to direct fit the Campagnolo UT bearing, or some other bearing.

If they are machined to take the Campagnolo bearing directly, there should be a pair of drillings at 180 degrees to one another across the drive side of the BB shell to take the retaining clip and the bearing seat distance (i.e. from the floor of the bearing location on the right, to the corresponding bearing floor on the left, will be correct for Campagnolo UT already, bearing in mind the necessity to fit the preload (wavy) washer.

If, however, the BB shell is made to take the Shimano-dimension bearings, you are scuppered, as the actual bearing seats on the UT chainset / bracket axle are 25 mm.

You can't mount the Shimano-dimension bearings as the ID of the bearing is too small for the OD of the bearing seat (also the bracket won't be drilled for the bearing retaining clip & the bearing seats in the frame will likely be the wrong distance apart) and you can't "miss out" the Campag bearings and slide a 25 mm ID bearing up to the bearing shoulder but not over it. Specialized made some adapters for using UT based around this kind of solution in their OSBB system and it didn't work well plus it stresses the BB axle in places & ways it is not designed to be stressed.

If the frame is made for a native 386 solution, then you need to go for OverTorque and use the supplied bearings which are designed to self-align if there is any error in the bearing seats ... notoriously difficult to control in composite.

I hear what you say about not wanting to invest in further kit but logically and given the cost of the AX Lightness frame, I'd say your best bet would be Comp Ultra OverTorque - 5% lighter & 5% stiffer than SR (maybe a better stiffness improvement overall if you are missing out the bearing cups and direct fitting the bearing) - otherwise you are compromising.

HTH
Graeme
Velotech Cycling Ltd - Main Campagnolo SC, UK

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:44 pm 
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Location: Toronto
Do Shimano even make a 386 crankset? Don't think so. Thought it was FSA, Rotor and Campy at this point.

OP an alternative is to buy these Wheels adapters designed for Shimano and have them machined out to 25mm ID.

http://wheelsmfg.com/386evo-adapter-for-shimano-cranks.html

The bearings needed are standard BB30.

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 12:21 pm
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Location: UK
Hi bikerjulio, I think the bearing seats in the frame are designed just to take a BB386 bearing, I don't think that there is anything installed in there at all at the moment. The sleeve idea would likely work if there are pre-installed 386 bearings but it's a bodge really - plus you can't conveniently use a wavy washer to control side play without making a washer that sits against the LH crank for the washer to bear against (as in PowerTorque) and you'd need to be very, very accurate in all of the dimensioning.

Practically I can see this being a huge headache with lots of potential downsides. Best in a case like this not to try and work around it, best to use the system as the makers intended. That way if it all goes horribly wrong, it's their fault, not yours.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:05 pm 
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Location: Toronto
Hi Graeme

A BB386 bearing is the same as a BB30 bearing - no?

The BB386 design simply spaces a BB30 bearing out to the dimension of a BB86.

ie it's a hybrid design mixing the BB30 crank diameter and bearings with the spacing of a BB86.

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:39 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 1:52 pm
Posts: 373
Location: England, UK
I know this post doesn't contribute anything, but reading this thread just shows what a mess the bottom bracket standard is now BSA is for some (seemingly unquantifiable) reason not good enough.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:00 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:58 am
Posts: 461
The only thing this proves is buying something without doing a full research if it will work, is just ludicrous.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:43 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:18 pm
Posts: 29
Butcher wrote:
The only thing this proves is buying something without doing a full research if it will work, is just ludicrous.



From The AX Lightness Vial Evo webpage:

There are also well-priced adapters separately available for Sram GXP as well as also those for Campagnolo UltraTorque cranksets, so that you are not being limited in any way in your choice of a crankset.


E-mail:

Me: 'Regards bottom bracket adaptor for Campagnolo Ultra Torque.  Is the FSA BB86 Evo Campagnolo Adaptor  the correct part to order?

AX Lightness reply: 'In regards to the BB adapter: Very correct, that is the one that you would be needing'


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:55 pm 
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OP I'm not quite understanding.

Is it:

You knew the answer but posted anyway?

You have found the source of a BB386 to Campy UT adapter?

You wish there was one?

or what?

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:12 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:18 pm
Posts: 29
bikerjulio wrote:
OP I'm not quite understanding.

Is it:

You knew the answer but posted anyway?

You have found the source of a BB386 to Campy UT adapter?

You wish there was one?

or what?


There is an adaptor to fit UT to BB386 but not one to fit to BB386 where the manufacturer has 'built in' non-removable carbon bearing seats. These non removable seats reduce the BB down to the 42mm needed to fit the bearings. This design is to save weight. :x The FSA adaptor has an external diameter of 46mm, designed to fit into a standard 46mm BB386 shell :D

Im fairly sure I know the answer now!! and yes I wish there was one...but there's not :cry:


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:30 pm 
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Location: Toronto
Then my suggestion is either to modify the Wheels adapter or have some equivalent made.

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:26 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 pm
Posts: 462
robhall2003 wrote:
Im fairly sure I know the answer now!! and yes I wish there was one...but there's not :cry:


Have you tried the answer they gave you, or just assumed it won't work?


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Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:26 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 5:36 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:18 pm
Posts: 29
Update 14/5/14

Excerpt from e-mail from Nils Wiedemann, AX Lightness

"I have had another customer in the meantime (from California) who was trying to fit his Campy Ultra-Torque crankset to his ALPHA frame which is sharing the same bottom bracket standard as the VIAL or VIAL evo. He has apparently been ordering all available Campagnolo bottom brackets to test them out and initially stated one of these would be fitting which after all has turned out to be wrong. So in effect and unless one was machining the adapter oneself I indeed do not see a conventional way to use Ultra-Torque cranks on this bottom bracket type. The newer Campy Over-Torque cranks will however without the need of any further adaptors.

The engage Clade e11 frame in the meantime uses a standard BB386evo bottom bracket; standard in that uses conventional Press-Fit bearings (PF30 or specific BB386evo ones), consisting of bearings cups + bearings. Here the FSA adapter for Campagnolo Ultra-Torque cranks will work right out of the box. On our own ax frames however we leave away the cups in favour of carbon bearing seats, which not only saves weight (ca. 25 gms) but also increases the stiffness (carbon obviously is a lot stiffer than nylon respectively plastic as used for the cups). So here the FSA Campy adapter will not work as explained before."


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