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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:07 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:28 pm
Posts: 1225
Hi,
I have a set of Zipp 303 tubulars. They are for 10 speed- I want to see if I can upgrade them to 11 speed.
How do I tell if my hub is a Zipp 188?
The hub is silver, has a darker grey cap on non-drive side, has a red 10 speed body for shimano/sram, radial laced drive side, and has a small allen for hub adjustment.


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Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:07 am 


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:25 am 
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Joined: Mon May 23, 2011 4:37 pm
Posts: 158
Best to ask factory directly with photos. They are usually very helpful and fast in replying.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:27 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:23 am
Posts: 106
Depends on the year. Are your hubs light silver or the darker silver (almost gunmetal) color? Only the darker (Falcon Grey, I believe is the name) hubs are 11 speed compatible.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:54 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:16 am
Posts: 7
The simple solution is to swop your freehub body into campy and fix a campy cassette for your new Shimano or SRAM 11 speed groupset. Otherwise you need to buy a longer axle for your zipp and re dish the wheel.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:55 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:13 am
Posts: 65
As above, black or "falcon grey" are upgradeable.
A quick google search yields this helpful page: http://www.zipp.com/about/story.php?ID=496


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:26 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:26 pm
Posts: 33
If it is the hub I think you are talking about, shiny silver hub, carbon/grey bearing shield on non drive side and axle has allen key profile on the inside on both ends, then you can do as tkailoon says, you need a camp 9/10/(11) free hub body (blue) and an extra 0.25mm washer (so 2 in total) between the free hub bearing and the hub bearing and and an 11 speed campag cassette. I have done this and it works perfectly with dura ace 9000.

Post a photo to confirm hub model.

The zipp website is brilliant for hub and free hub identification.

I have also done very similar with a firecrest zipp 303, no need for new axle and redishing, just an extra washer.

mrd


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:12 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
Posts: 1654
Location: Welland, Ontario
The whole "redishing nessessary" thing is wrong in most, if not all cases.

The misconception arises from the way Shimano, on Shimano branded hubs, handled the conversion to 11-speed. They extended the DS axle by 1mm. So the impact on the centering of the wheel would be 1/2 a mm in the case of a converted Shimano hub. I'd invite all those people saying that a redish is nesessary to get out a metric rule and contemplate what 0.5mm represents. It's 2/100 ths of an inch.

The issue does NOT arise with aftermarket hubs that offered a Campy freehub as an option, because these hubs would have had sufficient space on the DS to accomodate an 11-speed cassette already. Like Zipp.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:20 pm 
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Posts: 33
I agree entirely bikerjulio. the only issue with some hubs, like zipp, is that the 11 speed campag cassette's largest sprocket is dished inwards towards the hub and spokes slightly more than the 10 speed sprocket so it can bind on the hub body, hence the addition of the extra 0.25mm spacing washer.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:26 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:56 pm
Posts: 1239
Location: Canada
Well........here's my personal experience converting zipp late model hubs. These were the versions that zipp states can be converted to 11 speed. I was able to obtain the conversion kits that replace the freehub, axle and end caps. As stated by zipp the wheels did need a redish that was easily performed by half a turn for each spoke (both DS and nds). As measured by a park dishing tool the movement needed was about 2 mm. Not a huge amount and probably not necessary but I did it anyway. This was the same for the two wheels I did ( 303 fc cc and 404 tubular).

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:31 pm 
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Location: Welland, Ontario
goodboyr wrote:
Well........here's my personal experience converting zipp late model hubs. These were the versions that zipp states can be converted to 11 speed. I was able to obtain the conversion kits that replace the freehub, axle and end caps. As stated by zipp the wheels did need a redish that was easily performed by half a turn for each spoke (both DS and nds). As measured by a park dishing tool the movement needed was about 2 mm. Not a huge amount and probably not necessary but I did it anyway. This was the same for the two wheels I did ( 303 fc cc and 404 tubular).


Well there's only a couple of possible explanations for that:

either Zipp adds 4mm to the effective OLD on the DS, causing a 2mm shift in the wheel centerline, which I very much doubt,

or

the wheel was off center to begin with. :)

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:19 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:56 pm
Posts: 1239
Location: Canada
I still have my old hardware. I will try to measure the differences. See below from Zinn who encountered the same thing. He says 1.85 mm. I checked my wheels prior to the conversion and the dish was perfect. So it did move.

Quote:
Forcing 11-speed on 10-speed hubs
Dear Lennard,
I’ve just ordered an Ultegra 6800 group to build up a new bike. The group I ordered does not include hubs, as I intended to use wheels I already have that use Ultegra 6700 hubs. But now I’m seeing information (or mis-information) that the 11-speed cassette that comes with the Ultegra 6800 group won’t work with the Ultegra 6700 hubs. So, what’s the real story here? If the 11-speed cassette won’t work on a “stock” 6700 hub, is there any workaround, like replacing the freehub?
—Tom

Dear Tom,
Indeed, that information is correct. The Shimano (and SRAM) 11-speed freehub is wider than the 10-speed one, because the 11-speed Shimano (and SRAM) cogset stack height is taller than 10-speed. Even if you were to get the cassette lockring engaged by shoving those 11-speed cogs together as tightly as you could while you were screwing in the lockring, you wouldn’t get much thread engagement, and the first cog’s splines would not overlap the 10-speed freehub body’s splines. I’ve tried this; the lockring will thread in maybe one turn, but the first cog is not engaged; it will spin until the lockring binds it down as it turns it together with it. But if you were to apply a chain load, that cog would either just spin or it would continue to force the lockring to screw in more until the one or two threads holding it stripped, and then all of your cogs would come loose.

And even if you were to feel comfortable with the thread and spline engagement you got, the face of your lockring would rub on the inner face of your dropout when you installed the wheel in your bike. Yes, you could throw a little washer in there between the end of the hub and the dropout, but you’d still have the problem of a disengaged first cog and a lockring only holding on by the hair of its chinny chin chin.

The fix on some wheels is to get an 11-speed freehub body and a different set of axle end caps or spacers or a new 11-speed axle, but not all generations within a given brand are interchangeable. The fix is to interchange the freehub bodies and put more spacing on the axle’s drive end and less spacing on the axle’s non-drive end. Then you’d re-dish the wheel more to the drive side. I recently went through this with Zipp, and the re-dish amount was 1.85mm. Thing is, only 2012 and later Zipp wheels can be converted to 11-speed.

However, there is a fix for those with wheels that are not convertible to Shimano 11-speed freehubs but that offer Campagnolo freehubs (as you might imagine, Shimano is not one of those). You can install a Campagnolo freehub body on your wheel and get a Campagnolo 11-speed cogset. It will shift fine with a Shimano or SRAM 11-speed system.

And in case any of you were wondering, if you have a 10-speed Shimano or SRAM system and buy a wheelset now, you can still run 10-speed cogs on that wheel. To put a 10-speed cogset on an 11-speed freehub, you just put a spacer behind the largest cog. Many 11-speed wheels come with this spacer.
―Lennard


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:32 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:56 pm
Posts: 1239
Location: Canada
According to the Zipp web site, the overall drop to drop length (OLD) was increased by 0.8 mm and the NDS end cap was reduced by 1 mm. You can see the difference in the picture on where the threads on the axle stop. So, total overall change to dish would have been the OLD plus the end cap change, which just about matches the 1.85 mm thickness of the increased cassette width, and the change both Zinn and I say on the dish.

http://www.zipp.com/support/identify/hub_timeline.php


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:57 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:48 pm
Posts: 23
As far as i know anything before 2012 cant be converted.
Phone your distributor tho, they will put you right in 5 seconds.


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Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:57 pm 


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