New aero test: 12 aero frames vs 12 "unaero" light frames

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Calnago
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by Calnago

But the ergo "non-aero" version is so much more comfortable to hold.
Did I get it in before the lockdown :)
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ITTY
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by ITTY

Illuminate wrote:I'm keep hoping that Morris will turn up on this thread with an new special aero version of his ipump.


LOL'd pretty hard at work. Love you guys.
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refthimos
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by refthimos

justkeepedaling wrote:The fastest ever descent in pro cycling was done by Thor Hushovd on a Cervelo S5.


What is impressive about this is that the primary weakness of the S5 is its high speed handling, particularly in crosswinds. This gets better with shallower wheels, however.

I have over 20K miles on 2 different S5s. Here in SoCal, in order to win crits as a decent but not great Cat 3, you need to be able to do 1200W at the end of a hard race. That means you need to hit 1400W or so for 5 sec in the middle of a regular training session. We do a morning Tues/Thurs group ride the ends with a slight tailwind descent where the finishing speed it routinely 40-43mph. Aero matters at these speeds.

Moreover, as the Slowtwitch article makes clear, aero is always on. Aero is ALWAYS faster than non-aero. Whether you are sprinting at 40mph or climbing at 12 mph. The ONLY time the S5 is slower for me is when I have to back off on very fast demanding descents (typically >45mph with wind). That is where the increased side profile and narrow head tube are a detriment.

Comfort? No issue. I run 23mm 4000S (now the 4000S II version) and the bike is great. I'm not a mega-mileage guy but do ride about 10K mi/year and no issues. 145mi ride a couple weekends ago with 13K of climbing? No issues. Fit, saddle choice, tire choice and PSI choice will determine your ride comfort a lot more than your frame choice will.
Last edited by refthimos on Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hastur
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by Hastur

justkeepedaling wrote:most Specialized riders ride the Tarmac because they are told to from data


Can you please tell me what data you are refering to?

rijndael
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by rijndael

Not all top riders have been "in the tunnel" testing gear for years.

Chris Froome just got in the wind tunnel for the first time mid-last year / 2013! That was after he already had a lot of wins under his belt, and years on pro teams. The outcome of that was a significantly different position than he previously used.

Another data point, one of the neo-pros that joined up in the past couple of years didn't even get refit when he joined a team with very deep pockets. They just copied the road bike fit he'd been riding for years, previously done by my LBS (not known for good fits).

I think there's too many people assuming that the pros have the basics covered.

IMO, many are winning in spite of their management and choices, not because of it. I couldn't care less if other folks think aero bikes are a gimmick, it's their loss. If I'm shelling out money and I have to compromise on aero or grams of weight (and I do because my pockets aren't deep), I'll opt for aerodynamic benefits first.

justkeepedaling
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by justkeepedaling

Hastur wrote:
justkeepedaling wrote:most Specialized riders ride the Tarmac because they are told to from data


Can you please tell me what data you are refering to?


This was highdraw's out of nowhere conclusion.

I think exactly the opposite.

Hastur
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by Hastur

Ah. Thank you. :-)

Franklin
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by Franklin

It's no surprise that the experienced person confirsm what we know. The DS of a pro team aagrees 100% that Pro's are not rational actors and are not driven by any inherent knowledge of aerodynamics and technology.

This shows people with zero knowledge of the science behind aerodynamic can let their own missconceptions.determine his ideas. That they keeps on ignoring it even flying straight in the face of the evidence is just something human history has witnessed many times before. They will see the light at a certain stage.

Andrew69
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by Andrew69

Funny thread.
Thanks for the fun and games peeps!

nd2rc
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by nd2rc

I agree with refthimos. Anyways, nice little video from GCN.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlz52XW6CMM

KWalker
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by KWalker

rijndael wrote:Not all top riders have been "in the tunnel" testing gear for years.

Chris Froome just got in the wind tunnel for the first time mid-last year / 2013! That was after he already had a lot of wins under his belt, and years on pro teams. The outcome of that was a significantly different position than he previously used.

Another data point, one of the neo-pros that joined up in the past couple of years didn't even get refit when he joined a team with very deep pockets. They just copied the road bike fit he'd been riding for years, previously done by my LBS (not known for good fits).

I think there's too many people assuming that the pros have the basics covered.

IMO, many are winning in spite of their management and choices, not because of it. I couldn't care less if other folks think aero bikes are a gimmick, it's their loss. If I'm shelling out money and I have to compromise on aero or grams of weight (and I do because my pockets aren't deep), I'll opt for aerodynamic benefits first.

What neo-pro/shop?

I know of a neo-pro who signed with a big, deep pocket team who had his fit copied over when he joined. Kevin Livingston, Todd Carver, and the guys at his new team all verified that it was a very good fit. The shop that first did it was known for fits at the time, but later ended up going downhill so I'm wondering if its the same shop.
Don't take me too seriously. The only person that doesn't hate Froome.
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KWalker
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by KWalker

UncleJamsArmy wrote:Tony Martin opted for the Venge over the SL4: http://www.tony-martin.de/en/archive/13 ... venge.html


Martin won on an SL4 this year a few times and rode it for most of the Tour.

You guys are all talking past each other.

What the pros ride is often not their choice. On smaller/lower dollar teams they have an occasional choice, make it, ride with it, and forget about it. When I wanted an Addict I was reading about the Orica rider preferences and all of the reasons that riders chose a FOIL over an Addict or vice versa were very "unscientific". Matthews felt the Addict's seatpost "flexed all over the place like mad" so he chose a FOIL. Contador is almost always on an SL4 and hasn't changed his setup since he was on the SL3. Martin switches between the Venge and SL4 all the time and has won in solo moves on both.

In the case when a rider is in the wind for an entire course length or a large portion of it at a constant power with good wind conditions aero wins every time obviously. Most races do not go like this.

A previous poster specified what it takes to win at the cat 3 level in So Cal, which is funny considering the number of people I know down there that have had dozens of top 10 cat 3 finishes and since upgraded. One of these riders rides box section wheels on an SL3 and can't sprint over 1100w, but has podiumed a bunch of crit finishes. He used to suck at sprinting and crits and the one thing that made him better was working with a former T-Mobile pro on his positioning/tactics. The aero trend is very alive with masters racers and amateurs, but its funny because most racers will sit in the pack and see the wind for perhaps 4-5min an entire race if that at a pack speed of less than 28mph most of the time. Unlike pro tour riders, who have massive leadout trains and sprint at 40mph, most amateurs won't get close to that in a sprint and their sprint finish is largely determined by their freshness and positioning in the last few laps.
Don't take me too seriously. The only person that doesn't hate Froome.
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dunbar42
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by dunbar42

I also live in SoCal (and don't race) but there's no way I could do my 175-200 miles a week on a harsh riding aero road bike. And the Cervelo S5 certainly has the reputation for being one of the harsher riding aero road bikes. I ride a Roubaix SL4 with a CG-R (suspension) seat post and that's just barely acceptable to me (I can't handle the ride with a standard seat post.) I keep meaning to ride the newer supposedly better riding Felt AR and Cervelo S2/S3 to see how they compare. All I know if the Venge I test rode was so harsh riding that I probably wouldn't want to ride it on a regular basis if I owned one.

highdraw

by highdraw

Dunbar, quit bringing common sense or even the thinking of a tour rider racing a 2000 mile tour into the calculation.
Aero fan boys here look at data in a vacuum. I think the video did a credible job of explaining the choice between an aero bike versus not.

Hanging your hat on what is the fastest bike based upon a 300 watt steady state 40k TT like effort gives aero boys what they deserve.
Put aero wheels on a fat tube bike and now you have the best of both worlds and in spite of all the commentary to the contrary, the guys that race bikes for a living do know what is fastest for 'them' not only in a TT but when racing over 100 miles/day for 2 weeks in a row.
TT, short, flat course in open air, no question aero wins. Duh. :) But there is a cost in longer excursions which is not quantified by marketing 'data'...or with climbing. If there was a minute difference for every 40km traveled in the TdF this year, Nibali would have been beat by one or several riders on an aero frame as there were 20 unfathomably strong riders on an aero bike in that race this year. But he won on a traditional tube bike. In some ways the TdF is a metaphor for a traditional tube bike. A round tube bike is not a single stage. An aero bike is a single stage. A round tube bike is the aggregate of all stages. Most in the real world don't ride their road bikes daily in a TT format or they own a TT bike for that purpose. Notice in the pro peloton there are few exceptions in that regard...in TT's all pros ride uber aero TT bikes...which belies the questionable judgment of pro racers not understanding the right tool for the job. It is the amateurs on the internet that don't.
Last edited by highdraw on Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:55 am, edited 3 times in total.

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by User Name

nd2rc wrote:I agree with refthimos. Anyways, nice little video from GCN.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlz52XW6CMM

Thanks for posting this.
I love how one of the skinny guy says how flexy carbon rims are. Ha.
A lot of people are in denial about this :thumbup:

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