New aero test: 12 aero frames vs 12 "unaero" light frames

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highdraw

by highdraw

Actually BeeSeeBee your very premise underscores the issue here. You believe there is a formula to playing Mozart or golf or even racing a bicycle over a variety of terrain and wind conditions. I don't. I believe it is much more complex than that. My background in fact includes computer modeling kinematic systems. Most computer models fall short. They don't describe reality with any accuracy. So only elements say like aerodynamics can be modeled....or static/dynamic FEA for force deflection and stress/strain to create section strength. But not the interrelationships that effect overall performance. There is a lot of data on vertical compliance and lateral stiffness but none that correlates to overall performance or even rider attributes like a sprinter or a climber. Let's take the coveted TdF race. I don't think a rider on any given bicycle can be kinematically computer modeled. There may come a day when this it is possible however. I don't see why not other than computer power of super computers and interdependent algorithms that haven't been conceived yet.
Or at least modeling of a system that loosely mimics reality. Right now we only have glimpses of these attributes in isolation...like aerodynamics in steady state conditions...or vertical compliance where it is speculated that rider fatigue is reduced or lateral stiffness where it is conjectured that there is more efficient energy transfer. Even wheels are evolving in this regard...wider rims that lower tire aspect ratio and improve aerodynamics and lower rolling resistance and improve compliance by lower pressures. This is one grand and unfathomable equation that current technology can't solve. But one day I believe it will be or at least with some reliability. But the ultimate caldron is competition and racing against the clock and each other. If the trend ticked up that aero bikes replete with their known tradeoffs are faster, more and more riders will be on them winning more races and Specialized will have a hard time giving away its most famous race bike.

by Weenie


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Derf
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by Derf

The largest failing of this entire thread (which will not find its conclusion as explained by what I'm writing below) is that there is an implicit suggestion that humans are rational actors and not biased to the nth degree by prior history/circumstance (which is the ultimate reality). This is functionally the same argument as "tube amplifiers are/are not superior to all solid-state electronics, despite the fact that SS electronics "beat" tube on virtually every metric established (excepting wildly unusual end cases). The amount of priming that our mind does is quite incredible, and it's funny to see what the results are of blind testing (and the degrees folks will take to support or refute such studies; see: this thread).

This fact becomes more and more evident as the ostensible discrepancies become smaller and smaller (lost in the noise). If you can't really feel the difference between two frames, then your mind will make up new evidence based on whatever narrative it feels like (unchecked confirmation bias). Since it's nigh impossible to "feel" the drag advantages of an aero frame, it's hard to use that as a part of your decision engine. Plus, everyone knows that aero frames are horrid riding, right? :) On the other side, adoption of aerobars due to their obvious advantage was relatively quick--the signal was too loud to ignore.

I can't state much in terms of comfort of modern composite frames (alu here: '04 Allez died and became an '09 CAAD9--happy on both bikes), but we can generally trust that aero frames are (to degrees) lower drag than other frames, not much heavier (such that it's a virtual non-issue for UCI regs), and are much closer in stiffness to modern non-aero bikes than old road racing frames. I don't trust a pro's opinion about x bike or y much the same as I don't trust any other person's opinion. Or, I should say I trust them on bikes as much as I do about audio equipment. I certainly don't assume their any more a rational actor than anyone else.

Have fun with my post guys. I expect it to be twisted and flipped around to fit whatever narrative you're working from. :)

highdraw

by highdraw

The Tube to SS analogy is a good one derf. There are no scientific metrics or equations to define the warmth of a tube amplifier that a human can hear and appreciate in a blind study. :)
And to make you non audio guys feel better because many here are so emotional about discussion about aero frames, the same debates rage on audio forums as they do on bike forums...lol.

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BeeSeeBee
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Location: Bay Area, CA

by BeeSeeBee

highdraw wrote: :roll:


So you hold human perceptibility, something that is subject to all sorts of biases and psychological factors (see examples in Derf's post above) above modeling, blinded tests, accounts from industry veterans, etc.

You've stated that there are absolutely tradeoffs to aero frames (e.g. comfort and power transfer), which is why some pros don't ride them, then you point to those pros as evidence of those tradeoffs. Seem a bit circular?

I don't think you've presented a single argument in this thread that isn't a logical fallacy.

highdraw

by highdraw

BeeSeeBee,
I do nothing of the sort. Modeling has its place and what I do.
You miss the point and because I was so articulate, I believe there is little hope to connect with you. :)

The only fallacy or lets call it really a convolution of discussion here is your own. Everybody has to draw their own conclusions and they do which also is the purpose of debate. But there is one immutable fact. The record. The rest is speculation. Pros also choose a given frameset based upon much more experience than anybody here and much greater access to data than what we even have. Lots of top riders still going to non aero bikes and winning on them. With the parity in the pro ranks today, in spite of what many believe to be poor rider judgment picking the fastest bike, one would think the minority of aero bikes would reign supreme and yet that isn't happening with any frequency.

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Tinea Pedis
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by Tinea Pedis

kgt wrote:That is IMHO because a road bike's performance does not equal its aero performance in a closed system-lab. It is something much more complicated.

That would be true...if all they did was test in a tunnel.

There was a lot of modelling of certain routes, with different given wind directions and speeds, and refinement of which set up would be faster. All 'real world' tested, looked at and tested again. In the tunnel, velodrome and back in the real world.


kgt wrote:Sorry but I cannot buy that. Recent history proves that pro cyclists are willing to embrace immediately anything that gives them an obvious advantage (i.e. aero wheels, carbon rims in Paris Roubaix, etc.). Pro riders where actually buying themselves Lightweight wheels, years ago, when that was an ultra innovative product in comparison to what they used to ride. Why don't they all accept aero frames as easily?
So IMHO it's not a matter of "preconceived notions". These are normal people with common sense like you and me. It is not that they are retarded or something...

All I can relay are the experiences of the main man who is at the behest of three World Tour teams.

It's consistent with my own experiences racing internationally and (amongst other examples) what my DS this year (a DS for Vacansoleil until they folded) also believed.

As mentioned previously, if you believe differently and don't 'buy it' then I really don't mind.



And Derf
The largest failing of this entire thread (which will not find its conclusion as explained by what I'm writing below) is that there is an implicit suggestion that humans are rational actors and not biased to the nth degree by prior history/circumstance (which is the ultimate reality)

well put. We do plenty in life based on tradition. The idea that this is suspended as soon as a human looks at a bicycle is odd. Pros are certainly still very much human. And in many cases, not exactly giving up a career as a rocket scientist.

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BeeSeeBee
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Location: Bay Area, CA

by BeeSeeBee

I'm out. Highdraw keep harping on whatever it is you think your arrogance and ego make only apparent to you and your "enlightened" ilk. :roll:

highdraw

by highdraw

FWIW, I've about had it as well. Agree, its been kicked enough and good to see you finally came around. :)
Kidding aside, the aero versus non aero bike debate is a compelling one and the road to the truth is rocky or at least cobble strewn. ;)
We all love cycling and that should be our bond and make no mistake it is.

Will say again, I had a fantastic ride today in perfect conditions with my favorite peeps and we hammered like no tomorrow. Just awesome.

Ride safe.

Illuminate
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Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 4:18 am
Location: Australia

by Illuminate

I'm keep hoping that Morris will turn up on this thread with an new special aero version of his ipump.

justkeepedaling
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Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:14 am

by justkeepedaling

The logical fallacies from highdraw are just awesome to behold. It's amazing that you can come to a conclusion (most Specialized riders ride the Tarmac because they are told to from data) and backsolve your way to what is the reason despite being told directly that the exact person who gives data is saying the exact opposite thing.

I'm gonna go back to the real world where my simulations, data, and live testing save astronaut's lives. CYA.

Roadworthless
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Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:41 pm

by Roadworthless

Please, lets not wind him up again. The best way to get him to stop is to stop commenting on his outlandish ideas.

And wanting Morris in this tread would really put it over the top.

User Name
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Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:32 pm

by User Name

What's a Morris? :mrgreen:
Last edited by User Name on Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Roadworthless
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Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:41 pm

by Roadworthless

Just another useless thread about a pump that does it all [but pump up a tire]. Search.

roadworthy
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Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:57 pm

by roadworthy

Even I agree.....don't feed the troll.

ghisallo2003
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Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:10 pm

by ghisallo2003

I want an aero pump.

by Weenie


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