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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:18 pm 
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Location: Toronto
Wcl4 wrote:
Ah, the inner lip is preventing the cup from seating correctly? The bb width is correct? So both cups would have to be ground down 2 mm?

If you grind down both cups 2mm, I would think the likelihood of creaking will go up. Seems like a lot of hassle for a new bike - so I would take it up with the manufacturer - make them deal with it. Paid for with cash or credit?


We don't know what was in writing and what was verbal in the original deal, but the fact is that the builders mistake was in telling the OP that this unconventional request could be accommodated. Probably the builder is buying pre-machined BB shells for the frame builds that are fine for a BB30 bearing set. Unless they were experienced with Campy cups, and had access to them or their dimensions, they should not have made this promise. If they are aware of the issue and are routinely grinding down Campy cups, then they should have made that clear too. So, I'm agreeing that the builder is at fault. The question now is what to do about it.

At this point the OP could either get into a major dispute, try to return the frame and get his money back, or he could work with the seller to make it work as is.

It's not that hard to make it work, and I've already suggested the alternatives, one of which is the solution he should have gone with in the first place IMO.

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:22 pm 
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Location: Toronto
bikewithnoname wrote:
Would a different brand of BB Cup convertor work as opposed to the campag ones, they may have less of an insert? Parlee do a PF30 to campag convertor, there must be other BB30 to campag convertors. Could be the cheapest solution?


OP has BB30 according to him. BB30 is not the same as PF30.

Plus he is trying to use Campy PT cranks for which there are no aftermarket solutions to this problem.

The only two solutions for using this crankset are already discussed above.

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:22 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:31 pm 
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Posts: 45
Location: The Far East
bikerjulio wrote:
bikewithnoname wrote:
Would a different brand of BB Cup convertor work as opposed to the campag ones, they may have less of an insert? Parlee do a PF30 to campag convertor, there must be other BB30 to campag convertors. Could be the cheapest solution?


OP has BB30 according to him. BB30 is not the same as PF30.

Plus he is trying to use Campy PT cranks for which there are no aftermarket solutions to this problem.

The only two solutions for using this crankset are already discussed above.


Thanks for your input bikerjullio some good comments there ...

Frame seller acknowledged verbally and in further e mail corrspondence that i was running Campy PT cups and even told me in e mails what size i would need to order retc etc there was never any mention that they would not fit correctly and need to be grinded down to function correctly , Campag in the UK spat there dummy when it was mentioned to file down cups , so thats not going to be a viable option .Waste of $45 as now have some cups that i have no use for ...

The frame builder has confirmed that they " grind many many cups down " to resolve the issue ...shame they did not say this at point of sale .

As you have said above a an FSA adpator might be the way to go until later in the summer when the budget allows for some proper BB30 Rotor cranks etc etc .


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:21 pm 
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Location: Toronto
mattythemod wrote:

Thanks for your input bikerjullio some good comments there ...

Frame seller acknowledged verbally and in further e mail corrspondence that i was running Campy PT cups and even told me in e mails what size i would need to order retc etc there was never any mention that they would not fit correctly and need to be grinded down to function correctly , Campag in the UK spat there dummy when it was mentioned to file down cups , so thats not going to be a viable option .Waste of $45 as now have some cups that i have no use for ...

The frame builder has confirmed that they " grind many many cups down " to resolve the issue ...shame they did not say this at point of sale .

As you have said above a an FSA adpator might be the way to go until later in the summer when the budget allows for some proper BB30 Rotor cranks etc etc .


Sorry, you misunderstood me on the FSA insert. This needs the shell to be 42mm diameter all the way through, which you don't have.

If the seller was offering you a BSA insert it could only be in 2 pieces, custom made. Or they machine an FSA insert and cut it into 2!

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:41 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:10 pm
Posts: 338
I would just send the frame back and ask for it to be right.

You are the customer making a high-end purchase. Be patient, take no compromise.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:28 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:06 pm
Posts: 167
No point hoping a 'magical' solution will appear....

Either: A. Reject frame
B. Accept ground down cups (+/- loctite)
C. Accept BSA conversion.

Choice is yours. Personally I'd sell my PT crankset and haggle hard with the manufacturer over them supplying an OT one using the threat of rejecting the frame.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:34 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:01 am
Posts: 13
Try the new praxis bb30 adapter when it comes out


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:55 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:57 pm
Posts: 759
Location: Ireland
You bought a frame with particular requirements, if the frame is not correct it is not "fit for purpose", hand it back and tell them to sort it out. Name and shame the builder.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:07 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:16 pm
Posts: 45
Location: The Far East
boidos wrote:
Try the new praxis bb30 adapter when it comes out


Not sure when that hits the market ?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:15 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:16 pm
Posts: 45
Location: The Far East
Irish wrote:
You bought a frame with particular requirements, if the frame is not correct it is not "fit for purpose", hand it back and tell them to sort it out. Name and shame the builder.


I love the frameset to bits the shapes , the colours etc etc its goin to pain me to send it back BUT your quite right its not fit for purpose unless i upgrade to the new OverTorque chainset ( which they offered at cost price ) which i dont think is hardly fair or reasonable considering i was not aware of this to start with .


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:33 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
Posts: 1044
Location: Toronto
mattythemod wrote:
boidos wrote:
Try the new praxis bb30 adapter when it comes out


Not sure when that hits the market ?


NG.

If the Praxis adaper comes out it's for UT not PT.

There was a story recently that Praxis were no longer going to release this anyway, but I see the teaser is still there.

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:43 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
Posts: 1044
Location: Toronto
mattythemod wrote:
Irish wrote:
You bought a frame with particular requirements, if the frame is not correct it is not "fit for purpose", hand it back and tell them to sort it out. Name and shame the builder.


I love the frameset to bits the shapes , the colours etc etc its goin to pain me to send it back BUT your quite right its not fit for purpose unless i upgrade to the new OverTorque chainset ( which they offered at cost price ) which i dont think is hardly fair or reasonable considering i was not aware of this to start with .


You seem fixated on doing a BB30 solution. Unless you've been living in a cave for the past 10 years you should be aware of the multiple threads over many years detailing BB30 problems. It was never a good system IMO. Additionally the OT is a long spindle system which you then propose to put into a short spindle BB. It will work but the inherent BB30 problems will still be there.

There was never anything wrong with threaded BB's.

Conversion of your frame to BSA will yield the most solid, reliable result. And all for the price of new cups, not a $600 crankset. What is the problem?

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:00 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 12:21 pm
Posts: 62
Location: UK
Campagnolo UK SC here ...

Actually, yes, my reply when the retailer called me *was* "WTF are they on" as he revealed the name of the frame supplier to me. The supplier should know better.

The frame is actually supplied from an Italian factory making white label product for others, as is often the case. In this particular instance, the frame is made-to-spec for the dealer concerned.

The dealer concerned is very familiar indeed with Campagnolo - they should have checked this with the builder if they intended it to be compatible with UT or PT. If it's made for native BB30 solutions only, they should say so.

BB30 is a lousy BB system anyway, problems are legion and they all settle around a tendency for either the bearings or bearing adapters to walk out of the frame - it can't really be otherwise if one looks at the mechanics of what is going on. Even native BB30 solutions have problems with movement and creaking, and long term, the installation method is flawed as well - by the time the bearings have been replaced a few times, the alloy of the bb shell is eroded and the fit will be very poor.

As a result, shortening the cups is a monumentally bad idea. If there is a tendency for them to walk anyway, shortening them & as pointed out earlier in the thread, reducing their contact area in the frame will have two effects - first, less friction means more tendency to walk. Second, walking / fretting and the consequent ovalising of the bore of the BB *may* damage the native BB 30 seats so if the user ever wants to go to a native BB30 solution in the future, that *may* be more problematic.

I won't even bother mentioning what hacking a mm or 2 off the end of a BB cup might do to the BB / chainset warranty - I'd love to see Campag's reaction to receiving those cups back ... or a damaged BB axle. I suspect similar to my reaction to the suggestion made in the 1st place but in Italian.

So, to add to all of that, the essential problems facing this user are:

BBshell is not through-bored to the correct diameter.
This prevents use of any Praxis-type solution (added to which Praxis UT solution isn't out yet, and we've yet to see any mention of a PT version). For any non-initiates here, PT and UT are not compatible technologies.

Available bore in the BB shell is inadequate for any Campagnolo-warranteed solutions for PT / UT to apply.

Choices:
1. Overtorque will work fine with Athena and deliver the only true benefit of BB 30 - a bigger diameter & thereby stiffer BB axle and crank-to-axle junction. The rest is just froth.

N.B. - To correct some misconception here - OT is a non-ranged component, so Comp One uses similar materials / technology to Record in the carbon work, and a specific self-aligning bearing, steel balls, steel surfaces. Comp Ultra uses the same carbon tech as SR and a "Campagnolo USB" ceramic ball / steel surface hybrid self-aligning bearing. They are not direct equivalents of anything else in the Campag range.

The BB shell-width tolerance recovery mechanism in OT is rigid so the bearings will tend to shift a good deal less in a BB30 shell than anything involving a pre-load washer as do many "native" BB30 solutions.

OverTorque preserves warranty all around if correctly fitted.

2. Return the frame - The retailer, whilst they may not have misled you in any other sense other than by omission, should sort this out.

3. Find out if the retailer will countenance a bore-out of the BB30 shell to allow the fitting of the Campag adapters. They are framebuilders - they should be able to advise / facilitate.

Sorry I can't be more positive ...

HTH
Graeme

_________________
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:35 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
Posts: 1044
Location: Toronto
@Graeme

Nice to see a response that agrees with me on the BB30 design.

However, after trashing it you go on to suggest a Campy BB30 OT crank as the answer, which does nothing to address the BB30 issues you detail so well.

In the first post, OP says they offered a threaded insert
Quote:
and is offering a threaded insert so i can run standard BSA cups
.

Could you comment on this approach to solving the problem as well? Especially given that I gather OP already has the PT crank.

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


Top
 Profile  
 
Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:35 pm 


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:36 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:16 pm
Posts: 45
Location: The Far East
graeme_f_k wrote:
Campagnolo UK SC here ...

Actually, yes, my reply when the retailer called me *was* "WTF are they on" as he revealed the name of the frame supplier to me. The supplier should know better.

The frame is actually supplied from an Italian factory making white label product for others, as is often the case. In this particular instance, the frame is made-to-spec for the dealer concerned.

The dealer concerned is very familiar indeed with Campagnolo - they should have checked this with the builder if they intended it to be compatible with UT or PT. If it's made for native BB30 solutions only, they should say so.

BB30 is a lousy BB system anyway, problems are legion and they all settle around a tendency for either the bearings or bearing adapters to walk out of the frame - it can't really be otherwise if one looks at the mechanics of what is going on. Even native BB30 solutions have problems with movement and creaking, and long term, the installation method is flawed as well - by the time the bearings have been replaced a few times, the alloy of the bb shell is eroded and the fit will be very poor.

As a result, shortening the cups is a monumentally bad idea. If there is a tendency for them to walk anyway, shortening them & as pointed out earlier in the thread, reducing their contact area in the frame will have two effects - first, less friction means more tendency to walk. Second, walking / fretting and the consequent ovalising of the bore of the BB *may* damage the native BB 30 seats so if the user ever wants to go to a native BB30 solution in the future, that *may* be more problematic.

I won't even bother mentioning what hacking a mm or 2 off the end of a BB cup might do to the BB / chainset warranty - I'd love to see Campag's reaction to receiving those cups back ... or a damaged BB axle. I suspect similar to my reaction to the suggestion made in the 1st place but in Italian.

So, to add to all of that, the essential problems facing this user are:

BBshell is not through-bored to the correct diameter.
This prevents use of any Praxis-type solution (added to which Praxis UT solution isn't out yet, and we've yet to see any mention of a PT version). For any non-initiates here, PT and UT are not compatible technologies.

Available bore in the BB shell is inadequate for any Campagnolo-warranteed solutions for PT / UT to apply.

Choices:
1. Overtorque will work fine with Athena and deliver the only true benefit of BB 30 - a bigger diameter & thereby stiffer BB axle and crank-to-axle junction. The rest is just froth.

N.B. - To correct some misconception here - OT is a non-ranged component, so Comp One uses similar materials / technology to Record in the carbon work, and a specific self-aligning bearing, steel balls, steel surfaces. Comp Ultra uses the same carbon tech as SR and a "Campagnolo USB" ceramic ball / steel surface hybrid self-aligning bearing. They are not direct equivalents of anything else in the Campag range.

The BB shell-width tolerance recovery mechanism in OT is rigid so the bearings will tend to shift a good deal less in a BB30 shell than anything involving a pre-load washer as do many "native" BB30 solutions.

OverTorque preserves warranty all around if correctly fitted.

2. Return the frame - The retailer, whilst they may not have misled you in any other sense other than by omission, should sort this out.

3. Find out if the retailer will countenance a bore-out of the BB30 shell to allow the fitting of the Campag adapters. They are framebuilders - they should be able to advise / facilitate.

Sorry I can't be more positive ...

HTH
Graeme


Hi G

I am the victim of this and apreciate your input and i dont want you to get dragged into this so will understand if you dont comment .

They never told me about any of this before i placed my order and i have copys of all the emails to back it up ....they are insistent and claim that "they have grinded cups down many many times " and have offered me these FOC as you know they are one of Campags oldest retailer in the UK and i quote " never feed there customers bad advice " they also claim that Campag have changed the design of there PT cups and they are now longer .....

Last thing they need / want is a returned frameset and tbh i love everything else about the frameset they did offer me a Over Torque chainset at cost price but i dont think thats fair cosidering its there crucial omission that has caused this and are OverTorque compatbile with 10 Speed Cenatur ?

I wonder what they use on there sponsered pro team bikes ,i suspect the wheels mgf adaptors for Ultratorque !


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