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 Post subject: Re: road disc frame sets
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:31 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:37 am
Posts: 291
if you have any questions about the frame spec/geo just email hongfu, they are very easy to deal with and provided me with technical drawings with every spec imaginable before i ordered my 066


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 Post subject: Re: road disc frame sets
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:20 am
Posts: 386
I have yet to come across a disc frame with internal cable routing for not just the shifting cables, but also the brake cables, sourced out of China. Has anyone had more success than me?


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 Post subject: Re: road disc frame sets
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:41 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:37 am
Posts: 291
hong fu does....the fm079 and fm166 both have internal dangler and brake cable routing...


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 Post subject: Re: road disc frame sets
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:46 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:31 pm
Posts: 1048
I thought I just had to share this diatribe from an old friend of mine when asked recently about disc brakes. The traditional roadie's response

Quote:
The most important thing you are missing is the ability of an industry
to invent a solution to a problem that does not exist, in the
furtherance of driving sales.

Disc brakes have existed on mountain bikes for years, and they are
very effective. Speeds on MBs are low, and since they plough through
mud, rims get caked in mud, making rim braking surfaces ineffective.
DBs are very good in this scenario and are pretty much standard on
MBs.

In the last couple of years, DBs have become common on cyclo-cross
bikes. They are illegal on road racing bikes under UCI (cycling
governing body) rules, for several very good reasons.

However, manufacturers are determined that DBs will be the Next Big
Thing (to drive sales), and they are pressuring the UCI to legalise
them.

In recent years, carbon fibre has been the NBT, and almost every bike
component has been made from carbon, or a large percentage of carbon.
I don't trust carbon because of its mode of failure - sudden and
catastrophic brittle failure, a very worrying issue on a bike,
compared with the ductility of metal and its ability to absorb knocks
and dents and allow the rider to carry on riding.

One of the components that manufacturers have made of carbon is wheel
rims, a notion that scares me to death. However, the right of
manufacturers to sell to sucker cyclists wheels that cost 2 grand a
pair must not be impeded. A major advantage of carbon wheels (for
manufacturers, not for riders) is that, at little weight penalty, they
can make the rims 2-3 inches deep, thereby allowing the manufacturer
to slap 10 frugly logos all over them. Just tell the dumbo cyclists
that such rims are "aero" and laugh all the way to the bank.

In addition to mode of failure, there is one other, somewhat serious
problem with carbon wheel rims - your brakes don't work any more. A
12-yr old with 1st-year physics could work this out, but your average
cyclist is thick as shit, so they fork over the 2 grands instead.

In accordance with the laws of thermodynamics, braking works by
converting kinetic energy to heat energy. In order to be effective,
the braking surface must be able to dissipate this heat quickly, a
task for which aluminium rims are ideally suited. Since carbon doesn't
conduct heat at all well, it is almost useless for this task. Various
brake pad compounds have been developed, but the problem is basically
governed by a law of thermodynamics, and nature cannot be cheated, as
Mr Feynman reminded us after the first space shuttle disaster.

Now, manufacturers are not to be underestimated in cunning and
deviousness. That braking problem they invented all by themselves when
they developed carbon wheels - guess what? They can ride to the rescue
with a perfect solution - disc brakes! Kerrching, kerrching! And they
can use the safety argument to pressurise the UCI into legalising DBs.

But, but, but...

DBs on road bikes present several problems of their own. The only
scenario in which they might be useful is on long descents in the
rain. I have descended alpine mountains in torrential rainstorms, when
water was running off the mountainside and across the road over 1-inch
deep. My rims were totally submerged in water, and I had to keep the
brakes full on for 10km just to try to keep the rims dry, ready for
braking. No fun, believe me, and your arm muscles end up killing you
very quickly. I would dearly have welcomed a disc brake on these rare,
and scary, occasions.

In the dry, modern rim brakes have excellent stopping power, esp.
compared with the rubbish when I was young. DBs have several problems
on a road bike. There are 2 types of road DB - cable operated, which
are no better than rim brakes, and hydraulically operated. Hydraulic
brakes offer excellent modulation, but at a potentially catastrophic
penalty, since they have very small hydraulic reservoirs. Speeds on a
road bike are much higher than on mountain bikes where DBs became
standard. If a road rider "drags" his brakes on a long descent, it is
possible for the hydraulic fluid to vaporise, at which point the rider
has zero brakes and some very uncomfortable choices - not choices that
I would care to be confronted by.

Another serious problem is that the braking action tries to force the
wheel axle axle out of the dropout, so extra measures, such as tabs on
the dropouts or bolted axles instead of quick-release wheel skewers
are required.

There are other problems, but I won't go on, as I have already gone on
too long. Basically, manufacturers, having milked the "weight" and
"aero" bandwaggons, have decided that DBs are the NBT. As you know
from your own experiences living in China, the Chinese have perfected
the practice of getting manufacturing techniques down to a
sufficiently low cost to flood the market with goods of a very high
quality. So expect to see a lot more bikes with DBs in the next few
years.


:mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: road disc frame sets
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:02 pm 
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in the industry
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:31 pm
Posts: 353
He's clearly never ridden a pair of Zipp 404 FireCrest (best braking of any carbon rim I've used) and well, I've owned carbon bikes since 1996 without catastrophic failures yet Ive cracked a few Aluminum bikes in my day and they hit the trash bin while carbon can be repaired. He ignores aerodynamics and rotational mass completely and sounds like a retro grouch on a budget IMO, but whatever. The right tool for the job always favors the one bike fits all scenario and companies will continue to develop and progress as long as the parts they create can drive a profit.

_________________
carbonLORD.com


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 Post subject: Re: road disc frame sets
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:08 pm 
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User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:58 pm
Posts: 323
Location: Lancaster, UK
Quote:
I have yet to come across a disc frame with internal cable routing for not just the shifting cables, but also the brake cables, sourced out of China


The FM166 only has internal gear cables. The brake hose is external, although I guess you could modify it if you felt that way inclined.

There's a huge amount of drivel spouted about discs, and how they are pointless, marketing spaff and will kill you with boiling oil and so on. I've actually got them, so I'll report back when I've given the FM166 a decent number of miles. For me it comes down to a simple choice - do you want so-so brakes or decent ones?


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 Post subject: Re: road disc frame sets
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:15 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:53 am
Posts: 60
carbonLORD wrote:
He's clearly never ridden a pair of Zipp 404 FireCrest (best braking of any carbon rim I've used) and well, I've owned carbon bikes since 1996 without catastrophic failures yet Ive cracked a few Aluminum bikes in my day and they hit the trash bin while carbon can be repaired. He ignores aerodynamics and rotational mass completely and sounds like a retro grouch on a budget IMO, but whatever. The right tool for the job always favors the one bike fits all scenario and companies will continue to develop and progress as long as the parts they create can drive a profit.


Good points. Carbon rims have come a long way on the braking front and IMO the top tier thinwalled alloy bikes won't take an impact that would crack carbon any better.

Have you settled on the FM079, carbonLORD? I've been contemplating a R785 build and that's one of the frames that I've been eyeing.


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 Post subject: Re: road disc frame sets
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:21 pm 
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in the industry
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:31 pm
Posts: 353
Nebby wrote:
Have you settled on the FM079, carbonLORD? I've been contemplating a R785 build and that's one of the frames that I've been eyeing.


I really would like to add a disc equipped road bike to the stable but my actual need for a 3rd bike is really that of an Aluminum crit racer, go figure. Since I can't really race the disc road bike and should really be building an Allez E5 Smartweld I'm stuck between what I want and what I need, but if I do go the disc route will definitely take on the FM079. Only question is another set of ENVE's, the 3.4 Disc or another set of Zipps in 303 Disc???.... Decisions decisions.

_________________
carbonLORD.com


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 Post subject: Re: road disc frame sets
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:38 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:31 pm
Posts: 1048
All good points.

He's 62 FWIW and last year did 49:32 on the Alpe and completed in B.R.A in sub eight hours.

All on a Ti frame with traditional rims.

Kind of puts the value of "progress" into perspective for me.


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 Post subject: Re: road disc frame sets
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:08 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:23 am
Posts: 440
Airwise, send this to your friend. Carbon is soooo weak and brittle....

http://www.pinkbike.com/video/243228/


Last edited by bombertodd on Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: road disc frame sets
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:28 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:20 am
Posts: 386
dogg wrote:
hong fu does....the fm079 and fm166 both have internal dangler and brake cable routing...


Both of those frames route cables internally for the frame, not the fork. I'm waiting for one to be released where everything is nice and tidy. For reference, I personally think Volagi does the best job of this at the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: road disc frame sets
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:57 am 
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User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:58 pm
Posts: 323
Location: Lancaster, UK
the FM-166 does internal for gear cables. not brake. I've said this twice now.

The Volagi has some nice touches but curvy top tubes just look terrible to me. Always have.


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 Post subject: Re: road disc frame sets
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:39 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:20 am
Posts: 386
^Agreed

Sometimes I feel like if any of these OEM manufacturers simply put an ear to the forums, they would come up with some highly desirable products. Honestly, it would only take one or two days of "research" to create the perfect OEM road disc frame.


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 Post subject: Re: road disc frame sets
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:11 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:16 pm
Posts: 437
I asked a chap in London to make me one:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: road disc frame sets
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:16 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:20 am
Posts: 386
Is he making you a fork too?


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