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 Post subject: Re: Parlee ESX Aero
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:30 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 7:13 am
Posts: 1514
One thing that stood out to me was their justification for the tube shapes, they said that they used this Kamm/weird airfoil hybrid because Kamm tails dont have enough stiffness. Maybe they are using a narrower diameter tube but Scott's Foil certainly has never had problems measuring up in stiffness.


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 Post subject: Re: Parlee ESX Aero
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:30 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Parlee ESX Aero
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:44 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:06 am
Posts: 762
Location: Perth, Western Australia
One good reason they are probably not using the Kammtail or KVF shape is that Trek Patented it, so the shape Parlee is using probably gives the same benefits without infringing on Treks patent.

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Parlee Z5 XL 2011 (6055g/13.32lbs) Raleigh RC Ltd 2008 (7.6kg) Reynolds 653 Custom 1990 (9.8kg, now 8.8kg)
The accumulation of marginal gains is what makes the difference between winning and losing


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 Post subject: Re: Parlee ESX Aero
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:41 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:14 am
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Location: Sweden
Did they actually patent that shape? I seem to recall something about it not actually being their idea. That the "kamm-tail" is actually recorded in books about aerodynamics from something like back in the 1930's... Memory is really vague here, but it for sure isn't Trek's intellectual property. So do they really have that patented?

By the way, many cars actually rely on the kamm-tail design for fuel efficiency.

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 Post subject: Re: Parlee ESX Aero
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:45 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:14 am
Posts: 1223
Location: by Crystal Springs (Sawyer Creek Trail)
There are thousands of ways to do an airfoil type. Trek's KVF certainly are patented.

Parlee's airfoil still doesn't make sense in aerodynamics terms. Wayyyy too high adverse pressure gradient


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 Post subject: Re: Parlee ESX Aero
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:02 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 7:13 am
Posts: 1514
Certainly Trek didn't patent the use of all Kamm tails on bicycles, because the Foil came out before the new Madone; they may have patented the shapes they specifically use but not all cut short airfoils.


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 Post subject: Re: Parlee ESX Aero
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:25 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:17 am
Posts: 5
Trek were the first to showcase Kammtail technology on the Speed concept, as discussed in the white paper.

Quote:

Trek immediately applied for a patent covering the use of KVF technology on bicycle frames, components, and
accessories.


I am not sure if they were successful in their application - but they were the first ones to use it.


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 Post subject: Re: Parlee ESX Aero
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:38 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:42 pm
Posts: 58
I saw the ESX in the flesh on Saturday at a Parlee event at one of their dealers in the UK (Pedalling Gear). As well as the matt black one, they had a sparkling grey metallic version. Got to say in the flesh the bike looks totally different to the photos, and in a good way. Bob Parlee and Tom Rodi were both really interesting and not even slightly defensive, happy to take questions and give straight answers.

I'm a Z5 SLi owner and was surprised by how good the ESX looked for an aero bike. All it needs is a cool and creative custom paint job (just think how much better the S5 looks now than at launch, all through paint) and I think this will be a stunner. Tom mentioned a paint job that's coming that sounds amazing, can't wait.

I'll be interested to see wind-weenie comparisons to the S5, Bob and Tom were very confident...

Big thanks to Bob and Tom, and Dave of Pedalling Gear for a great morning.

FJ


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 Post subject: Re: Parlee ESX Aero
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:06 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:55 pm
Posts: 3
Location: England
I have to agree with FJ, ive always loved Parlee and first impressions on the ESX some time ago when i looked at the images really put me on the fence but until you have seen something in the flesh and tried it out you should be open minded i think. When i got the bikes in store my views changed immediately, the frame looks much much smaller in the flesh and the shape is lovely, still under 6.5kg for a full bike with plenty of room to move on that if your really concerned. Great ride quality as expected pure Parlee and every customer agreed once seeing the bike it was 100% better than expected and choosing between Z5/Z0 and ESX was now very very hard. No doubt some people will hate it aesthetically as we all have our own views and preferences and we cant expect Parlee to keep making the same bike year in year out either but if it encourages one person to buy a bike and start cycling then i think it's done it's job.


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 Post subject: Re: Parlee ESX Aero
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:15 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:06 am
Posts: 762
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Knowing Bob Parlee and his ideology on building bikes, I think when tested against other aero bike the ESX will compare favorably, and still retain the famous Parlee ride quality.

I love my Z5 as it is still amazing to ride 3 years on, and I have a Trek, Colnago and a Custom steel bike to choose from and compare.
One of the reasons I bought a Trek Madone for racing is that it is a good all rounder. Excellent handling, comfortable on long rides and it is "aero". Not quite as aero as a Venge, Propel or S5, but the H2 geo works for me, long legs short torso ( still run 9 cm saddle to bar drop) and I can guarantee it will not leave me feeling shaken and beaten up after 100km plus rides on rough roads.
I think the way bikes will go is more aero as frame weight limits reach a plateau. Whether we like it or not aero, internal cables, electronic shifting and probably hydraulic brakes (rim or disc) are what marketing will push on us.




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Ozrider - Western Australia
Parlee Z5 XL 2011 (6055g/13.32lbs) Raleigh RC Ltd 2008 (7.6kg) Reynolds 653 Custom 1990 (9.8kg, now 8.8kg)
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 Post subject: Re: Parlee ESX Aero
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:53 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:37 am
Posts: 5699
Location: Phoenix Arizona
It should do fine...

One thing we keep forgetting is that the applicable speed for cycling aerodynamics to work well makes for some shapes working out that wouldn't otherwise make sense for planes and cars and moto's... Kamm tails for cars have taken quite a few different shapes but when you're talking about maxing benefit between 20 and 35 MPH, those shapes would change again... And remember that Parlee not only have a pretty bright staff, but they partnered pretty recently with a company that has a lot of depth of Aero knowledge with the Toyota Prius project.

They were doing research and proto's for quite a while... I took these a year or so ago.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


At some point it will see a tunnel and I'm betting it's benefits work out pretty well... Maybe it's the low drag "winner" and maybe it's simply an aero improvement over their other designs. Either way, slating it with zero data seems pretty stupid based for no other reason than Parlee's track record of launching relatively few new things but making the things they do launch count pretty well...

Given the fact that even their marketing person is way more concerned about ride / product quality and development than marketing, the benefit of the doubt is pretty easy to give to this company...

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 Post subject: Re: Parlee ESX Aero
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:46 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1353
CharlesM wrote:
It should do fine...

One thing we keep forgetting is that the applicable speed for cycling aerodynamics to work well makes for some shapes working out that wouldn't otherwise make sense for planes and cars and moto's...
...
Given the fact that even their marketing person is way more concerned about ride / product quality and development than marketing, the benefit of the doubt is pretty easy to give to this company...


Exactly. re the application of aerodynamics to cycling... A pretty brisk cycling pace in a group will probably average somewhere between 15-25mph over a fairly long ride over mixed terrain. Say a century ride (100miles/160km) with hills etc.... most of us would do well to average 20mph over the course of that ride. I'm gonna get far more benefit from drafting than any aero bike will give me. And once behind someone, the aeroness of the bike as tested in any wind tunnel is somewhat mitigated as I'm now drafting and riding in "dirty air". And we're not talking individual time trials here. We're talking real world riding. Basically, aero in the real world of amateur cycling even in fairly fast groups is way overblown in my opinion. There are lots of threads talking about that which I really don't want to get into here, just my opinion for reference to the point I'm making. The point is, on anything other than a tt bike, where aero at the expense of everything else may actually win, some consideration should also be given to aesthetics, and practical things like cable routing, etc.

So far, it would seem that at first glance at least, the majority of people think this bike is just plain ugly. At least, that's the conclusion I would come to from reading the thread so far. I for one would gladly give up the humps on the top tube and down tube for nice smooth lines anyday, rather than have to keep justifying its ugliness by saying "but, but, it's so 'aero', just read the "ad", or "whitepaper", or listen to what their marketing guy said".

Which brings me to the "marketing guy". If it is indeed true that their marketing guy is far more interested in the ride / product quality and development than he is about marketing, well I guess that partially explains why it came out so ugly. Because any marketing person should always have at the top of their priorities, the overriding question "Will it sell, and how can I make sure it sells". That's what marketers do... they sell ice to eskimos. I just can't believe that they vetted this design past a whole bunch of people who were brave enough to say what they really thought about the aesthetic appeal of the humps and the "backwards" looking fork, etc... And that's before we even ask the people who have any experience with internal mechanical cable routing.

Sorry, even though I'd like to give Parlee the benefit of a doubt here, so far I've heard nothing in this thread that compels me to do that... because even if it's the most aero thing in the world... well... it's still ugly imo. And aero just isn't that big of a deal to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Parlee ESX Aero
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:48 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:37 pm
Posts: 48
Location: Australia
+1 above.....what market research indicated that the cycling masses wanted an 'aero' bike and that they wanted it to look 'ugly'. Cervelo produced one and called it the S5....I have no doubt the lesson learnt was that complete aero does not trump good looks (quick scan around my local Cervelo dealers and and the discounts currently available on the S5's is proof of that). Maybe Parlee are bringing this to the table as an experiment, and not too worried about sales at this point?


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 Post subject: Re: Parlee ESX Aero
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:16 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:14 am
Posts: 1223
Location: by Crystal Springs (Sawyer Creek Trail)
So articles are stating a savings of something like 12 watts over the Parlee Z5 for preliminary studies. That's not really that much. A standard Cervelo R3 2014 edition saves almost that much over a Z5. A S5 saves somewhere around 32 watts...


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 Post subject: Re: Parlee ESX Aero
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:53 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2003 9:42 pm
Posts: 2002
i'll take a pinarello prince any day. fine curves. fine form.

this parlee, though maybe functional, does not meet form.


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 Post subject: Re: Parlee ESX Aero
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:53 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Parlee ESX Aero
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:40 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:25 am
Posts: 4479
Location: Canada
Well, I think I have come full-circle onnthis thing. It actually seems interesting. Unfortunately, the headtube looks sky-high. I'm not sure I could ever ride the thing. Charles, have you seen the geometry chart?


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