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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:36 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:17 pm
Posts: 226
Location: UT/TX/PA, USA
Rode these Panaracer road tubeless tires this morning for the first time, did about 48 miles. Thought I would share a few thoughts here.

1. Set-up
- Wheels: Bora 50 (17mm internal width; not specified as tubeless compatiable, but works)
- Tires: 25c Panaracer Race Evo3 tubeless
2. Rider Weight: ~205 lbs (all muscle, of course; jk, but I'm more of a weight-lifter)
3. Bike: Fuji SL 1.1
4. Pump: Lezyne Pressure Over Drive (for tubeless set-up)
5. Air Gauge: Topeak SmartGauge
6. Previous Road Tubeless Experience: Sector 28, Schwalbe Pro One 25 and 28.

Initial Impression of the Tire(s):
The tires had a bit of "felt" texture on the tread section. The entire casing felt thick, especially the tire-bead section. My reference points are Sector 28 and Schwalbe Pro One tires. The tires felt very well made. Per Panaracer, weight specification for the 25c tire is ~280g, but mine is likely around ~320g, I think. As my kitchen scale is in storage, I used my bike scale to weigh the tires, so the level of precision isn't there. FWIW, the Schwalbe Pro One 25c tires I have are about 255g each.

Installation Process:
The tire installation process was straight-forward. The fit is tight, but not overly so. I seated the tires using the Lezyne pump specifically designed for tubeless set-up. The tire-bead snapped into the rim channel immediately and no meaningful loss of air during the subsequent 12-hour period. I then wanted to see whether the tire would stay seated without any air pressure. After I let out the air using the Topeak gauge, the tire stayed seated. Initially, at ~90 PSI, the tire measured ~23.4mm -- I was surprised and a bit disappointed. Both tires measured about the same.

I then e-mailed Jeff at Panaracer (a really nice guy), who told me to inflate the tires to ~110 PSI and let them sit over-night. Jeff said the tires are designed to "expand". The tires now measure ~24.1mm to ~24.2mm -- still narrower than what I was expecting. I had heard that the Japanese tubeless tires (i.e. IRC & Panaracer) are on the narrow end of the spectrum. FWIW, the Schwalbe Pro One 25c tires on the same wheels measure ~26.1mm. Schwalbes are much more bulbous in shape.

As the tires seated so well, I could easily have ridden it without any sealant. I did put ~1.0 oz of Orange Seal into each tire for protection.

Initial Riding Impression:
- Really smooth. Did I say smooth? Really smooth. I was a bit surprised, again. From memory, the Panaracer may even be more smooth than the 25c Schwalbe. The 28c Schwalbe Pro One tires I have are certainly more "comfortable", but I'm not sure they are more smooth than the Panaracer.
- The roads here in Pittsburgh are not good. I think I've encountered many natural "roubaix" roads. haha. I recently moved to Pittsburgh from the Dallas/FW area of Texas.
- The ~48 mile ride I did this morning was all paved, from the poor asphalts roads to recently paved bike path. The Panaracer was, again, smooth. And, as a rider who loves corners, curving roads, and speed, I really tried to push the tires/bike. The Panaracer stay composed. Though, to be fair, I have just one data-point of 48 miles. Assuming tomorrow's weather does cooperate, I will take the same bike out. Will have more thoughts.

I'm hopeful this write-up is helpful to those interested in tubeless road tires.

p.s. I had to abandon one of the Schwalbe Pro One 25c tires because it now has two punctures.

Photo of the initial installation.
Image


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Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:36 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:56 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:25 pm
Posts: 2
Hi justaute, I have read a lot of the Panaracer's and I'm going to give it a try. Have you tried it on wet conditions? How about the durability? I rode a pair of Hutchinson fusion 3 and 3.000kms later both are literally destroyed.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:23 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:17 pm
Posts: 226
Location: UT/TX/PA, USA
javier87gav wrote:
Hi justaute, I have read a lot of the Panaracer's and I'm going to give it a try. Have you tried it on wet conditions? How about the durability? I rode a pair of Hutchinson fusion 3 and 3.000kms later both are literally destroyed.


javier...I have not ridden them in the rain; I usually ride my disc-bike, which has 28mm Schwalbe Pro One tubeless, during bad weather. :)

And, as I have only a couple of hundred miles on the tires, can't really say much about their durability.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:59 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:59 pm
Posts: 208
Thanks for this.
I have a 2013 supersix Evo. I tried 25mm Schwalbe one tubeless and they where too tight.
I measured them at 26mm.
24mm should be good for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:41 am 
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 9:39 pm
Posts: 1064
i used to ride the Schwalbe One Pros...and wanted to try the Panaracer Evo 3 since they were on sale and half the cost of the Pro Ones at Excel Sports. i felt a similar impression. great review.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 1:31 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:59 am
Posts: 80
tarmackev wrote:
Thanks for this.
I have a 2013 supersix Evo. I tried 25mm Schwalbe one tubeless and they where too tight.
I measured them at 26mm.
24mm should be good for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Interesting. The 25mm Ones fit fine on my 56cm 2012 Evo.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:33 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:59 pm
Posts: 208
sovereign wrote:
tarmackev wrote:
Thanks for this.
I have a 2013 supersix Evo. I tried 25mm Schwalbe one tubeless and they where too tight.
I measured them at 26mm.
24mm should be good for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Interesting. The 25mm Ones fit fine on my 56cm 2012 Evo.


I've got standard 25mm Schwalbe ones on but the tubeless version don't fit.
I've gone back to GP4000's today. 25mm fit with no problems.
The bike's the 2013 Hi-Mod.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:43 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:17 pm
Posts: 226
Location: UT/TX/PA, USA
Well, to each's own. I've had terrific service from Panaracer. That said, it may very well be rep-dependent. In fact, I had a large puncture on a fairly new tire and wasn't sure I should keep on riding it; contacted Panaracer about it and was suggested that I probably should discard the tire and, to my surprise, Panaracer sent me a replacement tire, free of charge.

I'm not a fan-boy of any company, and whether people buy Panaracer products or not has no bearing on my decision-making process. To date, based on my experience with Panaracer, I think people should give this company a chance. Of course, there are alternatives. I'm also a big fan of IRC RBCC tubeless tires and am currently running 28mm (measures 28.4mm on my wheels).

p.s. I guess the previous poster deleted his comment.
Scott2017 wrote:
-


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:01 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:05 pm
Posts: 72
For anyone that may stumble upon this later, I figured one good comparison was worthwhile. I was torn between these and the Pro Ones pre-2017 season and eventually went with the Pro ones. Let me say, I made the right decision. Now that fall/winter is rolling around I picked up a set of these in 25c, and I'll state clearly: They are not as good as the Pro one. For some reason, I am sensitive to tires even though I know that human interpretation of feedback is garbage. I even did a few studies on the topic when I was still at university. So, take all this with a grain of salt.

What I've learned after >500 miles:
On my wide-ish Boyd Altamont, they measure up almost exactly 25, but I prefer the larger size of the Schwalbes, for the same marked tire size (read: loss of comfort and more sensitive to tire pressures). With the Pro Ones, you could go to a lower psi and keep performance. The All Contact shape of the Panaracers requires a certain psi to keep its performance and is very sensitive to even a few psi. For me, at even a lower ~150 lbs, I needed 100 psi rear with 90-95 front to keep a comparable rolling resistance feel. With this pressure, they soak up very little of the larger road surface, but, like others mentioned before, still roll smoothly on smaller rough stuff. Drop it down to the pressure I use on the larger Schwalbe (80-85 psi) and you pick up a gummy rolling feel. I think most of these issues come down to the inner butyl coating that is absent on the Schwalbes. Whether or not this will add any durability is yet to be seen.

I have owned other Panaracer tires and have always found their manufacturing to be top notch. The bead on these tires is excellent. If you decide to try these, you will need lubrication to seat the bead.I pulled my 28c Gravelkings I had on until these delivered and I honestly felt that in most cases, that tire offered more. Even being MUCH larger they rolled, at least, comparably and allowed for lower pressures, alas not tubeless.


Last edited by Ltyarbro42 on Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:20 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:17 pm
Posts: 226
Location: UT/TX/PA, USA
Good stuff, Ltyarbro42. As of now, I think I prefer the new IRC RBCC to the Panaracer Evo3. Weighing around 210 pounds (~95kg), the IRC rode quite well using pressure of ~70 psi front and ~80 psi rear. I'm still playing the tire pressure a bit.

The only real issue I had with Schwalbe Pro One was durability. For whatever reason, I got punctures easily on them, but they are definitely very good tires -- and very light for their given volume.


Ltyarbro42 wrote:
For anyone that may stumble upon this later, I figured one good comparison was worthwhile. I was torn between these and the Pro Ones pre-2017 season and eventually went with the Pro ones. Let me say, I made the right decision. Now that fall/winter is rolling around I picked up a set of these in 25c, and I'll state clearly: They are not as good as the Pro one. For some reason, I am sensitive to tires even though I know that human interpretation of feedback is garbage. I even did a few studies on the topic when I was still at university. So, take all this with a grain of salt.

What I've learned after >500 miles:
On my wide-ish Boyd Altamont, they measure up almost exactly 25, but I prefer the larger size of the Schwalbes, for the same marked tire size (read: loss of comfort and more sensitive to tire pressures). With the Pro Ones, you could go to a lower psi and keep performance. The All Contact shape of the Panaracers requires a certain psi to keep its performance and is very sensitive to even a few psi. For me, at even a lower ~150 lbs, I needed 100 psi rear with 90-95 front to keep a comparable rolling resistance feel. With this pressure, they soak up very little of the larger road surface, but, like others mentioned before, still roll smoothly on smaller rough stuff. Drop it down to the pressure I use on the larger Schwalbe (80-85 psi) and you pick up a gummy rolling feel. I think most of these issues come down to the inner butyl coating that is absent on the Schwalbes. Whether or not this will add any durability is yet to be seen.

I have owned other Panaracer tires and have always found their manufacturing to be top notch. The bead on these tires is excellent. If you decide to try these, you will need lubrication to seat the bead.I pulled my 28c Gravelkings I had on until these delivered and I honestly felt that in most cases, that tire offered more. Even being MUCH larger they rolled similarly and allowed for lower pressures, alas not tubeless.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:53 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:05 pm
Posts: 72
justaute wrote:
Good stuff, Ltyarbro42. As of now, I think I prefer the new IRC RBCC to the Panaracer Evo3. Weighing around 210 pounds (~95kg), the IRC rode quite well using pressure of ~70 psi front and ~80 psi rear. I'm still playing the tire pressure a bit.

The only real issue I had with Schwalbe Pro One was durability. For whatever reason, I got punctures easily on them, but they are definitely very good tires -- and very light for their given volume.


That is definitely a drawback, although I managed to avoid this most of the time; probably due to my weight. I got about ~3000 miles on a rear tire and had 2 punctures per tire, one in a rainy race and one training on some nasty backroads. Both sealed with orange seal, but I know of those who have had much less luck with them. The IRCs are definitely on my list now.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:27 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 20, 2017 11:40 am
Posts: 9
Deleted my comment out of fairness as, after a bit of badgering, Panaracer ultimately got back to me with a decent response. Would have preferred to have gotten it from the get go, but better late than never.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:40 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am
Posts: 131
justaute wrote:
Rode these Panaracer road tubeless tires this morning for the first time, did about 48 miles. Thought I would share a few thoughts here.

1. Set-up
- Wheels: Bora 50 (17mm internal width; not specified as tubeless compatiable, but works)
- Tires: 25c Panaracer Race Evo3 tubeless
2. Rider Weight: ~205 lbs (all muscle, of course; jk, but I'm more of a weight-lifter)
3. Bike: Fuji SL 1.1
4. Pump: Lezyne Pressure Over Drive (for tubeless set-up)
5. Air Gauge: Topeak SmartGauge
6. Previous Road Tubeless Experience: Sector 28, Schwalbe Pro One 25 and 28.

Initial Impression of the Tire(s):
The tires had a bit of "felt" texture on the tread section. The entire casing felt thick, especially the tire-bead section. My reference points are Sector 28 and Schwalbe Pro One tires. The tires felt very well made. Per Panaracer, weight specification for the 25c tire is ~280g, but mine is likely around ~320g, I think. As my kitchen scale is in storage, I used my bike scale to weigh the tires, so the level of precision isn't there. FWIW, the Schwalbe Pro One 25c tires I have are about 255g each.

Installation Process:
The tire installation process was straight-forward. The fit is tight, but not overly so. I seated the tires using the Lezyne pump specifically designed for tubeless set-up. The tire-bead snapped into the rim channel immediately and no meaningful loss of air during the subsequent 12-hour period. I then wanted to see whether the tire would stay seated without any air pressure. After I let out the air using the Topeak gauge, the tire stayed seated. Initially, at ~90 PSI, the tire measured ~23.4mm -- I was surprised and a bit disappointed. Both tires measured about the same.

I then e-mailed Jeff at Panaracer (a really nice guy), who told me to inflate the tires to ~110 PSI and let them sit over-night. Jeff said the tires are designed to "expand". The tires now measure ~24.1mm to ~24.2mm -- still narrower than what I was expecting. I had heard that the Japanese tubeless tires (i.e. IRC & Panaracer) are on the narrow end of the spectrum. FWIW, the Schwalbe Pro One 25c tires on the same wheels measure ~26.1mm. Schwalbes are much more bulbous in shape.

As the tires seated so well, I could easily have ridden it without any sealant. I did put ~1.0 oz of Orange Seal into each tire for protection.

Initial Riding Impression:
- Really smooth. Did I say smooth? Really smooth. I was a bit surprised, again. From memory, the Panaracer may even be more smooth than the 25c Schwalbe. The 28c Schwalbe Pro One tires I have are certainly more "comfortable", but I'm not sure they are more smooth than the Panaracer.
- The roads here in Pittsburgh are not good. I think I've encountered many natural "roubaix" roads. haha. I recently moved to Pittsburgh from the Dallas/FW area of Texas.
- The ~48 mile ride I did this morning was all paved, from the poor asphalts roads to recently paved bike path. The Panaracer was, again, smooth. And, as a rider who loves corners, curving roads, and speed, I really tried to push the tires/bike. The Panaracer stay composed. Though, to be fair, I have just one data-point of 48 miles. Assuming tomorrow's weather does cooperate, I will take the same bike out. Will have more thoughts.

I'm hopeful this write-up is helpful to those interested in tubeless road tires.

p.s. I had to abandon one of the Schwalbe Pro One 25c tires because it now has two punctures.

Photo of the initial installation.
Image


Can you give us an update on these tires? How have they held up over the last 6 weeks?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:52 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:30 pm
Posts: 310
Ltyarbro42 wrote:
For anyone that may stumble upon this later, I figured one good comparison was worthwhile. I was torn between these and the Pro Ones pre-2017 season and eventually went with the Pro ones. Let me say, I made the right decision. Now that fall/winter is rolling around I picked up a set of these in 25c, and I'll state clearly: They are not as good as the Pro one. For some reason, I am sensitive to tires even though I know that human interpretation of feedback is garbage. I even did a few studies on the topic when I was still at university. So, take all this with a grain of salt.

What I've learned after >500 miles:
On my wide-ish Boyd Altamont, they measure up almost exactly 25, but I prefer the larger size of the Schwalbes, for the same marked tire size (read: loss of comfort and more sensitive to tire pressures). With the Pro Ones, you could go to a lower psi and keep performance. The All Contact shape of the Panaracers requires a certain psi to keep its performance and is very sensitive to even a few psi. For me, at even a lower ~150 lbs, I needed 100 psi rear with 90-95 front to keep a comparable rolling resistance feel. With this pressure, they soak up very little of the larger road surface, but, like others mentioned before, still roll smoothly on smaller rough stuff. Drop it down to the pressure I use on the larger Schwalbe (80-85 psi) and you pick up a gummy rolling feel. I think most of these issues come down to the inner butyl coating that is absent on the Schwalbes. Whether or not this will add any durability is yet to be seen.

I have owned other Panaracer tires and have always found their manufacturing to be top notch. The bead on these tires is excellent. If you decide to try these, you will need lubrication to seat the bead.I pulled my 28c Gravelkings I had on until these delivered and I honestly felt that in most cases, that tire offered more. Even being MUCH larger they rolled, at least, comparably and allowed for lower pressures, alas not tubeless.

Tubeless Gravel Kings are supposedly in the pipeline as per another thread here.


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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:52 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:30 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:05 pm
Posts: 72
morganb wrote:
Tubeless Gravel Kings are supposedly in the pipeline as per another thread here.


I think I was in that thread. A tubeless gravelking with the correct build up would be ideal. The bead from Race As applied without the thick Butyl coating would be a for sure winner. I don't think it's been confirmed in the 28 though.


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