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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:44 pm 
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5 8 5 wrote:
11.4, have you read the thread?


5 8 5, yes, I actually did. And I read the Australian thread. And I called CPSC. And I talked to Shimano. Now what do we have? One rider who has broken three cassettes with virtually no mileage. A new poster here, and a new poster on the Australian forum (posting on the same subject). That Australian thread has someone who breaks cassettes repeatedly as well. OK. To break cassettes repeatedly, unless it's happening to plenty of riders, is called user error. It isn't a product defect until a number of riders have had the problem. Not two who do it over and over. Any quality control expert will tell you that only an attorney would try to make a case out of two users who break multiple components like this, and the attorney wouldn't win in court. Let's see photos from anyone else on this forum who's had a failed 9000 cassette. When we have a dozen, with photos, it starts to be real. Neither CPSC nor Shimano have seen any unusual level of breakage, despite what was mentioned in the thread. Let's see a scanned response from Shimano acknowledging the issue. Let's see photos from other users. This breakage pattern is user error.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:45 pm 
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Location: Toronto
Quote:
This breakage pattern is user error.


I don't have any interest in this other than idle curiosity. I'm 100% Campy :D

What is it that the "user" did wrong do you think?

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:45 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:20 am 
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Posts: 345
Adding gas to the fire!!!!

This is a safety issue, 3 failing on a new design with this part is three to many. Has anybody heard of and all metal cassette/cog failing like this?

I would expect that 0 would be the "usual level of breakage" with all metal cassette/cog. I personally feel that 3 is an unusual level of breakage with this new design. It's not the amount of failures, it the how, why and will it happen to me.

Not asking for a witch hunt, but I am not using mine anytime soon.

C


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:21 am 
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Posts: 34
One person breaking 3 cassettes in a short period of time seems to indicate 1 of 2 possible root causes:
- A product that is very poorly designed and/or manufactured. Statistically, failures in this frequency point to very big problems
- Some form of user error / misuse

As there aren't widely reports failures, I'm leaning towards some form of user error / misuse


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:41 am 
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I am not sure that we would see widely reported failures, were would we see these failures reported?

It would be in weighweenies, we are the cutting edge of this sport : ). This forum is way ahead of the curve when it comes to cycling information.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:12 am 
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...local shops, group rides, at the races?????


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:05 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:56 pm
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Location: Canada
Oh no...............

http://shadowlans.net/2011/02/a-broken-cog/

Campy!!!!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:17 am 
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goodboyr wrote:
Oh no...............

http://shadowlans.net/2011/02/a-broken-cog/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Campy!!!!


Not quite the same thing, but good try.

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:52 am 
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Posts: 665
Location: Canada
uraqt wrote:
Adding gas to the fire!!!!

This is a safety issue, 3 failing on a new design with this part is three to many. Has anybody heard of and all metal cassette/cog failing like this?

I would expect that 0 would be the "usual level of breakage" with all metal cassette/cog. I personally feel that 3 is an unusual level of breakage with this new design. It's not the amount of failures, it the how, why and will it happen to me.

Not asking for a witch hunt, but I am not using mine anytime soon.

C


I was responding to this question.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:22 am 
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Location: Toronto
goodboyr wrote:
uraqt wrote:
Adding gas to the fire!!!!

This is a safety issue, 3 failing on a new design with this part is three to many. Has anybody heard of and all metal cassette/cog failing like this?

I would expect that 0 would be the "usual level of breakage" with all metal cassette/cog. I personally feel that 3 is an unusual level of breakage with this new design. It's not the amount of failures, it the how, why and will it happen to me.

Not asking for a witch hunt, but I am not using mine anytime soon.

C


I was responding to this question.


I had something, but no.......I got nothin'

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:20 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:53 am
Posts: 345
@ goodboyr

WOW, that is crazy!! good find!!!... guessing that they are braking on an impact load, if the cog is damaging the body. You wouldn't see that with the carbon carrier.

@ FourRings

You really trust your local shop? Sorry I don't race or really do group rides.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:54 am 
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11.4 I can perfectly understand that this is hard to believe...and your assumption is that the reason for the product failure is “user error”
I can’t say when your told “it’s your fault the cassette broke” my pride takes a hit and I want to prove otherwise so I’ll keep it simple and give you my evidence that this is a very poor design, make up your own mind.
Your logic is that shimano for whatever reason could not be aware of a product problem like this or accept that this cassette is a rubbish design….
So, therefore it must be a user error.
It’s a cop out to say “user error” because the only thing a user could do to cause this failure is pedal to hard and break the carbon, or not have the correct tension of the lock ring? Assuming greasing of threads, and re-torqueing and all the lah lah…what else could one possibly do to cause this?
And even if it didn’t break, who in the last 20 years has ever had a creaking cassette that required re-torqueing to keep it quite… as its absolutely clear that loads of people have this problem at the very least?
Facts
1. I have spoken to Henry Bosch at shimano Europe head office in the Netherlands, after calling to report a dangerous product they put me on to him. I talked with him at reasonable length and described and explained the problem that I had and asked they were aware of this problem. He said the have at some come back but were not inundated, and most importantly that there was an issue with the rivets in the past…. quite evasive but honest .
2. I have picture to demonstrate the failure of three cassettes all with a couple of days use, interestingly it appears that breakage is around the rivets… wow
3. The LBS installed all of the cassettes and you’d expect for it to be done properly, but as many would agree.. It not have been. Besides that, I have 25 years working on bikes and personally checked and re-torqued the cassette to the correct t “middle of the road” tension of 40nm, and of course I checked to see the manufactures instruction before I ramped it up to 50 for the last cassette. So we can pretty much throw the correct tension debate in the bin.
4. That leaves me putting so much power the cassette creaks and fails, please… I’ve put more than double the power into previous durance cassettes and they didn’t break, or crackle & pop. I bet there is nobody out there to report the same failure on any of the older dura ace cassettes?
So you have my evidence this is a rubbish design.
I still love the dura ace range and will continue to use it…. But if you were me, what you do?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:13 pm 
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Location: Canada
I think " use error" here is a more generic term for "something unique that you and/or your lbs is doing. Were these takeoffs or brand new ones? What do the splines on the wheel look like? In other words why did you get three in a row?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:05 pm 
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Location: Toronto
There's always the "bad batch" theory. Even if Shimano is incapable of making a design, specification, or manufacturing instruction mistake, errors or quality issues in manufacturing can still slip through. The rivets themselves or the riveting process could have been faulty.

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:05 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:23 pm
Posts: 18
Its reasonable to accept that there is a bad batch out there as there are a number of complaints of identical nature but the majority are working fine.
Its possible that as the first two cassettes came of identical cannondale bikes (after the first one broke the LBS couldn't get another cassette for a couple of weeks so they ordered an identical cannondale in and took the cassette off that one)
Its possible that a run of this model cannondale got a bad batch, and then when they got the third one in from shimano directly it could simply be an unfortunate coincidence..

That's the only conclusion I can come to.
Regardless of this I think many would agree its still a bad idea to use a carbon spider body in a cassette


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