Dura Ace 9000 11 speed cassette- rubish product design

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:17 pm

by campagnolo321

For what its worth I have had shifting issues when using a 12-25 Ultegra cassette, I then put on a 11-25 and shifting improved considerably.

Despite re-adjusting B tension screw on mech to bring upper pully away from sprockets issue of poor/slow shifting still happened.

My therory is........... mech geometry and mech hanger geometry is designed to work with bottom sprockets starting with an 11 not a 12 tooth, if there is not enough lateral play in the chain then this could hamper quick shifting as could a flexy soft aluminium mech hanger !

As tolerances have to be so spot on for 11 speed systems any slight performance dedregration from one or more or two or more parts i.e. ( Flexy mech hanger, inflexable chain, incompatability with a 12 tooth bottom sprocket ) then you may well see poor shifting.

So, use sprockets starting at 11, use KMC chain, adjust B tension screw, ensure correct chain length, buy stiffer after market mech hanger and align it with Abbeytools HAG tool !

Just my 2 cents worth !

by Weenie

Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:36 pm

by Belisarius

Nebby wrote:Even if we knew what an acceptable rate of failure was, there's no way to determine what the current rate of failure is. The sample size on this forum is small and people tend to only post online when they have an issue. Trying to extrapolate failure rate based on a forum thread where the subject line is "rubish product design" is not a good way to go about it.

Actually, this is incorrect; there is one fundamental incorrect driving assumption, that there is an acceptable failure rate in this case, backed by two irrelevant premises: A, that there is no way to determine the current rate of failure and B, that it may be a poor methodology to deduce it from the forum. Here is the short rebuttal:

A- Easy to determine, from the # of Shimano issued replacements. That Shimano does not publish such a number does not mean their warranty department, or Global HQ, cannot obtain data- whether 1, 3, 10 or 0.15%.

B- Extrapolating failure rate from forum is indeed impossible, but this is also backing an incorrect assumption and preset conclusion. Forum extrapolation is not necessary; the forum has already demonstrated a real serious issue.

Unlike industrial tolerances, there is no acceptable, preventable critical failure rate in the automotive, aeronautic or road/highway safety sector. The accepted failure rate for a road, maritime or aerospace vehicle is zero if it endangers human safety, if it is known, if it is a design issue, and IF it can be corrected. GM had 13 fatalities (out of millions of vehicles- or 0.0013% for one million) caused by faulty steering or switch, and once it was proven the failure was known, rest is history, US Govt, consumers, litigation. Same for the aeronautical industry. Tolerance for a known failure that can result in an aerospace or road crash is ZERO- certainly in North America. No part known to potentially give away, fatigue, snap or break can be used in any commercial or recreational vehicle if it may lead to road, maritime, aerospace safety hazards.

My point is that any cassette failure, resulting in a fall or a traffic accident, rider injury or worse, may have (‘has’ is reserved for actual regulators) failed the acceptable regulatory threshold.

Why I think this forum is invaluable, and actual numbers do not matter. We are not discussing hard drive or smartphone failure, nor are we discussing the freak hazard bike frame crack, but critical component and road safety at speeds of 30-70 km per hour. The chain drops I experienced, and I avoided stressing the carbon to dodge a cassette crack, made me temporarily loose control of my direction(1-2 m at speed) luckily, no car was next to me.

The good news is that Shimano adapts its designs rapidly, and am very confident these issues will be resolved. 1.5-2 summers of DA feedback (how many people do 8000 kms per summer) is perhaps reasonable.
Last edited by Belisarius on Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:04 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:36 pm

by Belisarius

Anyone experienced thesse issues with 11-23 or 11-25 and higher? key being 11.

thank you

Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:58 pm

by bnog

Hi guys!

I found this threath very helpfull but I really had big decision to make. I had a Ultegra 6800 di2 working with a ultra 6800 11 speed cassette.

But now I change my chain rings to a sram red 22 x-glide 53 - 39

I have a ultegra di2 and I am afraid if its a good choice to buy the sram red 22 1190 cassette cause my LBS says it will do a lot of noise cause that was only made to work with sram.

So with my bike should I buy the 1190 sram red and the sram red chain?

I really need your help thanks

Posts: 1074
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:42 pm
Location: Pa USA

by glepore

Any noise difference with a SRAM cassette has nothing to do with the Shimano drivetrain-that's nonsense. Earlier SRAM cassettes were really noisy due to the shifting ramps and the solid design, but the latest gen is much improved. Maybe a bit louder than Shimano still, but it has nothing to do with them "only being made to work with SRAM".
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Cannondale SS Evo Di2 7970 (5.79); Willier Cento Uno Air Di2 9070 (7.0); C40 Mk2 DA 7800 ; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record

Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:29 am

by KLabs

Belisarius wrote:Ok so update. Where should I start?

Shifter replaced. Mounted on a trainer- same issue. To their credit Shimano pursued with a green light to change EVERYTHING- shifter, derailleur, polymer cable, etc etc. The shop did not need to call me in- they could detect the issue.

Shop used another maintenance due bike, one of those owners that never complained of his 11 speed set-up, mounted a 12-25 11 speed on their bike and- SAME PROBLEM. Essentially, no matter the bike tried etc- same problem

Problem was found through trial and close observation: Cassette design around the cluster, AND chain tolerance. Shifter can never get the chain to engage fully the carbon cluster, resulting in a grind when upshifting, and lag when downshifting. Also, DA chain has NO room in the center of the cassette, depending how it (sits left ) or ( sits right) on the tooth, left or right side ALWAYS hits and nearly grabs the adjacent tooth- BUT ONLY IN THE CARBON CLUSTER SECTIONS. When watching the trainer, became clear that the angle (17-18-19) or 18-19 between the chain cogs and the 53 chainstay automatically has the DA chain ALWAYS rubbing- effects varying from slow to strong effort. One cannot see light between the DA chain and the cogs.

Campy chain: you can see light AND it self-trims on the trouble cogs-18 and 19 (my only carbon cluster presently).

When told, Shimano shipped a fancy calculator tool to verify critical angles, hanger bolt, alignment etc. My bike passed with excellence. By now was on my 3d-4th week without my best bike. Anyhow, Shimano sent an additional part that I cannot divulge- as it does not yet exist.

However, my shop decided to experiment separately. A campy SR chain was installed. It is 0.2 mm thinner than the Shimano, and a different, more resilient construction. Difficult to describe the transition my bike experienced, kinda like going from an Infinty Q50 to a McLaren P1. 95% of all grinding and catching disappeared. Cannot feel, hear or sense the chain. Or the cassette (minus the carbon cluster) No lateral, longitudinal or horizontal vibrations. Gained 2km/hr in the 34-38 range, and 1km/hr in the 40-50 km/hr+ range. The only issue that I still experienced was partial engagement grind, followed by the Campy chain self trimming. Something like this:

tac tac tac grrind grind tac tac. (15-16-17- grrr18,-grr19, 21,23,25)

downshifting would get tac - tac - taaaac=taaaac-taac- tac-tac, (25-23-21-19---18---17-16-15-14) a few millisecond delays on 19 and 18th and 18th to 17.

Chain dropped once under load, likely 1000W short effort, 53/19t, chain engaged 18t and ping!!! Dropped back on 19t and self centered. After that was more cautious. With the DA the chain could never center as there was no room for it physically, and would drop frequently. With campy I got one drop in 100 kms.

Between the DA chain and the Campy, 95% of the issue had been solved. Additional steps with Shimano involve trying their new parts. The also want a footage and my bike- but I want to ride until Nov.

What causes it? I have three theories:

- Engagement Flex- as the chain mounts the carbon based cogs, these lean 0.1-0.3 mm inwards and begin a slow and uncertain recentering.It is POSSIBLE (though not necessarily a fact) as I can BEND by as much the carbon cluster squeezing them with my fingers. A few times, I just let the chain grind and see? 5-10 m of rolling the grinding stopped as the Campy chain mysteriously quieted. That, my friends, had NOTHING to do with cable shifting.

- Tolerance: Spacing is NARROWER on all carbon cluster cogs- visually seems so but do not have a tool to check with precision, but DIFFERENT than spacing on below or above cogs, and DIFFERENT than the 11 SRAM spacing which appears equidistant

- A combination of the two above.

Will pursue the Shimano venues- my bike been requested by them- but only in Nov. What seems certain is that:

Campy chain removes 100% of the pedalling grind, and 95% of the engagement grinds (the 5% being those two or three carbon cluster cogs). Cycling in the Campy configuration was safe, solid and one could not feel or hear the chain or any movement whatsoever, at 35, 40 or 50 km/hr. However, not to imply a carbon cluster cannot break, the issue above is that there is still something weird happening when the chain engages it.

Only sounds are in the 53/18-19 movement, after which the chain settles-1-2 seconds.

NONE of this was possible with the DA chain, which rattled terribly 17-21 and semi noisy the rest of the gears. More lube would silence it in the 12-17 range. However, the Campy chain DOES NOT EXIST on the 12-13-14-15-16-17- - -21-23-25 configurations. No chain sound, no lag, no energy loss, no noise, and I feel I can brutalize it and it just begs for more effort. The DA crank is powerful, the Campy chain a workhorse, and the only variable still in doubt is the cassette.

My next step? A new cassette, DA 11-23 experiment (to determine if a general issue with 12-25 DA or 12-25 Ultegra cassette). SRAM if that experiment fails.

What was tried: 4 cassette, x3 cables, x2 complete new 9001 shifters and x2 derailleurs, x3 wheelsets, x2 road bikes, no solution to a working 11 speed DA or Ultegra set up in a 12-25 / 39-53 mount.

Mobile Pro Bus tech had also confirmed to me not having seen it work in a 12-25 carbon cluster 11 speed configuration.

Furthermore, from asking around, some people have it but just ride with grind (though not too fast), creaks and partial shifts and push too little to experience drops.

Comments from Pros: they cannot comment due to non-disclosure agreements (this is literally in the press). But TDF close pics reveal that no matter the group manufacturer, the pros mix parts in their set up.

This post really does show that Shimano's QA and Technical prowess could be called a Rubbish/Cowboy/FireFighting approach... lets hope they manage to sort it out :(

Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:58 pm

by bnog


So You guys don't have doubts always go for the sram 1190 cassette and the red 22 chain right?

glepore wrote:Any noise difference with a SRAM cassette has nothing to do with the Shimano drivetrain-that's nonsense. Earlier SRAM cassettes were really noisy due to the shifting ramps and the solid design, but the latest gen is much improved. Maybe a bit louder than Shimano still, but it has nothing to do with them "only being made to work with SRAM".

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Posts: 864
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:19 am
Location: Brisbane, Oz

by petal666

How do bike shops get away with being so ignorant?

Sram and Shimano drive trains are fully compatible.

Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:58 pm

by bnog

I will follow the advice of guys and buy the 1190 cassette with the red 22 chain.

I will post feedback when I have the setup done in my ultegra di2

thanks a lot guys

petal666 wrote:How do bike shops get away with being so ignorant?

Sram and Shimano drive trains are fully compatible.

Posts: 1420
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

1190 is good... still using DA chain though w/ no issues

User avatar
Posts: 408
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:56 am

by kbbpll

Marketing VP: We must make this cassette as light as Competitor X and at cost Y.
Engineer (smirking): Well, we could make the cassette body out of plastic.
Marketing VP: Do it.
Engineer (as people get up to leave meeting): But, I was just joking.

User avatar
Posts: 4665
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Vicenza

by micky


Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:58 pm

by bnog

I have the ultegra chain so I will change it for the red22 I hope it works well too.


spdntrxi wrote:1190 is good... still using DA chain though w/ no issues

Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:37 pm

by bigfloor

Anyone tried using the new XTR chain ? I just installed a 5800 group on my winter/bad weather bike, and it came with a new chain, the same one to be used with a 11spd MTB group. So I checked it out and Shimano has got 2 chains above it, and they are interchangeable with the road group 11spd.
I also found out that the CS5800 has only one (alloy) spider, and is therefore amongst others heavier.
But to my surprise, also quiter !
So I am thinking about testing 2 things, running the 5800 chain on my 9000 bike, and using the 5800 cassette on my 9000 bike.

Sent from my Tab3 using Tapatalk

Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:46 pm

by duckson

Sorry, but are people talking about a noisy drivetrain here?

I went from a creaking DA9000 12-28 cassette to an Ultegra 6800 11-28 about 6 months ago and i cant seem to get it to run quiet...it'll be fine if i lube the chain for about 10-15 miles but then will gradually get noisy like the chain is catching on something or not quite indexed correctly (it is, middle sprocket on the block and moving up and down in the gear and the noise doesnt change until you hit the upper or lower sprockets properly).

Tempted to try a SRAM Force PG1170 11-28 cassette after reading about spacing issues on the Shimano cassette, if i'm understanding it correctly?!

I am using a DA9000 chain (~1500 miles old) and a new DA9000 rear mech.
No problems with shifting or it jumping or anything else.

by Weenie

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Last post