Dura Ace 9000 11 speed cassette- rubish product design

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
User avatar
743power
Shop Wrench
Posts: 745
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:15 am
Location: Colorado

by 743power

Zig - the revision is on the inner carbon piece. The lowest cogs are still unchanged.
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."

Zoro
Posts: 349
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:52 am

by Zoro

Years ago I bought a Token 9 speed milled from a single billet. Still in use.
SRAM, as mentioned is one piece too. RECON has them in alloy and some in steel. They are light - 120-140 and cost 2X what a nice chain or tyre does. One pieces don't leave dig marks on the alloy freewheel body (WW all have those right?).

by Weenie


Belisarius
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:36 pm

by Belisarius

My saga:

Critical failures in the 9000 design.

Pro set up Columbus Genius, DA 9000 11 speed, 39/53, 12-25, internal routing, Zipp 303 tubulars. Worked like a charm for 900 kms. Then the rear cassette issues began, uncertain if a cog or the chain or why would it struggle on one disk (18t) specifically? Clank noise resonating in the frame (BB?) No we checked without the chain. Up or down gears no matter. My Gianella specialist (Montreal) changed the DA cassette twice, set it up several times, the issue came back.

Part of the shifting issues: the 'Polymer' coating had began unraveling inside, at contact points, and coiling around the rest of the cable, changing aspect and thickness of the cable. With a new uncoated stainless steel, lubricated cable, shifting issue resolved.

In the end, the 'polymer' coating is a gimmick that is condemning the rider without knowing. In contrast, the 'BOA" steel lacing system, on shoes worn 7000-10000 kms, it is also coated in a tiny plastic and NEVER unraveled itself. At similar look or feel, this critical Shimano component will fail the rider when it comes to one thing: gear shifting. The steel cable is intact, it is the polymer failure specifically that fails the steel contained within. Seeing the sections next to the lever where it unraveled and coiled (COILED) on itself, one could not even see the metal pattern underneath, and the gear issues became clear. Drag was local, and shifter position / gear issues were associated only with the location of the polymer blockages.

In addition to the cable, the 11 cassette spacing may be too narrow for a standard crankset (angle of chain and CN-9000 thickness). Once the chain is on 53/18t, the angle and tolerance changes, favouring unnecessary rubbing and grinding (Shimano admitted this a few weeks ago, see the bikerumour article on the new upcoming DA 9000 cassette). Particular care is required to keep the chain soaked to the point of it gliding across the engagement teeth on the nearby 17t. That aside, none of it changes the chain whips I get occasionally under load, 18t and higher.

More, the technician must adjust the derailleur angle relative to the plane of the cassettes, adjusting or bending the hanger on the frame, neutrally, positive or negatively. Turns out the DA requires a slight positive (Shimano recommends neutral); however, the chain is slightly twisted on the cogs. The higher the chain tension (53 17t/18t) the more likely it will skip or grind. On the 18t the chain 'rests' on the left side of the 17t and moves up and down along its engagement teeth, even though on the 18t, and this oscillation is accentuated by the spider oscillation. 21/23 are not a factor as, by then, the size of the cog is sufficient to keep the chain clear from the nearby smaller cog and often one drops load and tension going down on the smaller chainring (36 or 39).

But these default issues (Polymer cable flaw, Chain perhaps to thick for cassette or cassette space tolerance too low, etc), forced this rider for weeks back at the shop. One culprit- the cable- was gradually annoying. Sufficiently working to mask the symptoms, but failing in actual usage. Failure means poor to no riding, and hence the one star.

Gear shifting resolved, the cassette issue is critical- as a riding and safety issue. 18t, 19t 21t sound as if they are worn out about to die (2nd cassette in a week) Yesterday, 06 Jul, brand new cassette, the chain nearly jumped out twice under load, 18t or 19t. Grinding/moving, the carbon spider section flexes, is too close to 17t, and the chain is literally shaken and vibrating until a critical oscillation may throw it off that cog. The metallic bang that ensues is quite concerning. SRAM 11 is my next bet until the new cassette is released- the bikerumour article.


Rider: 173 cms 73 kgs, 350-400 kms / week, rest speed 30-32 km/hr, cruise 35-36, faster pace (10 k sustained) 40-43km/hr.

Current usage: 1800 kms/2 months.

Previous systems used: 105, Ultegra. Issues- nil

User avatar
743power
Shop Wrench
Posts: 745
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:15 am
Location: Colorado

by 743power

Wow, long post. I have set up plenty of 11spd shimano bikes and am yet to see this issue with the 17 and 18t or any sort of chain jumping. I have da9000 on my personal bike and have only had the cassette carrier problem that we all know about.

Does your bike have 400mm chain stays? I have only seen the problem you are describing on bikes with the shortest possible stays. The other cause would be a chain connecting pin pushed in the wrong way or some sort of aftermarket quick link that is too wide.

I don't know what you read on bikerumor, but I have no reason to think in a million years that shimano is going to change the dimensions of their chains or cassettes.
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."

User avatar
wheelsONfire
Posts: 1757
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

I have two 12-28 cassettes, no issues at all. I also have the older design. I must be lucky, i have had them on Fulcrum Red Wind and Mavic CCU 2014.
Been running a Shima DA chain and now a KMC chain. Works great with both.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO D
Paduano Racing Fidia
Open *UP*
https://opencycle.com/showcase/the-xplo ... eelsonfire

Zigmeister
Posts: 921
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:09 pm

by Zigmeister

People can say what they want about SRAM in general, I run Di2 9070 personally, but SRAM 1190XG cassette...that cassette is a genius one piece design, light, stealth rings...quietest cassette..you can barely hear me pedaling next to you at times.

Not sure what Shimano is doing..but hey, many pros are running the 6700 Ultegra cassettes due to a need for weight increase anyway.

VTBike
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 8:14 pm

by VTBike

This is pretty unfortunate from the standpoint of SRAM not offering the 12-28 or 12-25 configurations. Does anyone notice/care about that difference? I wanted to go the D/A route because it doesn't have those 3t jumps in the higher cog, which I find annoying.. I'd rather have the closer spacing in the higher cogs and lose the 11t. Anyone else w/ opinions on this?

dha
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:40 pm

by dha

Would love the 12-28 in DA, might go Ultegra simply to have that option. The closer spacing in the top half would be helpful.

eric
Posts: 2196
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
Contact:

by eric

sram offer an 1050 model 12-28.

One thing I dislike about Sram's 1x-28 is the 3t jump from 19-22. Shimano's 11-28 do a more usable 19-21 there and make a 4t jump from 24t to 28t, which is fine if the 28t is a bailout gear for super steep sections.

User avatar
spytech
Posts: 1693
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 12:34 pm
Location: New York City
Contact:

by spytech

after 1500 miles my 11sp dura ace popped. it kept skipping and skipping, when i stop and look down, 2 of the gears where close to each other. ill take it to the bike shop and have pics up tomorrow. SUCKS!!! arghhhhh.

VTBike
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 8:14 pm

by VTBike

dha wrote:Would love the 12-28 in DA, might go Ultegra simply to have that option. The closer spacing in the top half would be helpful.


There actually is no 12-28 in ultegra... that range is unique to D/A. Ultegra has an 11-28, which seems interesting as it's got a pretty tight range, then its a 3t jump from 25-28, which i think is great as a bailout gear. Curious about weight though - I can't find an 'actual' weight that I feel i can trust on the ultegra. Competitive cyclist has actuals listed at 212g for all the different sizes, which can't be true. A different site has 255g listed for the 11-28 which seems more spot on. THat being said, a 100g penalty over the SRAM seems like alot.

THinking i might just go for the 11-26t option in SRAM.. and force myself to suffer and/or get stronger.

User avatar
spytech
Posts: 1693
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 12:34 pm
Location: New York City
Contact:

by spytech

here it is. the replacement i got is the same, not the revised version. lets see how long this one last.
Attachments
photo (12).JPG
broken DA 9000.

random101
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:15 pm

by random101

I just bought one off Wiggle :s 11-28.

After reading this I'm thinking of returning it and going with trusty SRAM :/

dha
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:40 pm

by dha

VTBike wrote:There actually is no 12-28 in ultegra... that range is unique to D/A.


You are correct, I must have been wishing for the Ultegra version,

by Weenie


Carrots
Posts: 112
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:04 am

by Carrots

Just looking at cassettes on wiggle... Crikey when did SRAM get so pricey?!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post