Dura Ace 9000 11 speed cassette- rubish product design

[NiFTY]

When they built the most durable and still lightest cassette of the big 3. Theres a lot of CNC machine time on that cassette.

[micky]

Indeed I think Sram got a winner with that cassette design; simple but durable.

[wojchiech]

I've been considering DA9000 for my next bike... although this thread had turned me off of trying to use the cassettes.

With the mention of 11 speed SRAM Red cassettes, have any weenies here had any problems using the Red cassettes with DA9000 drivetrain components? If not I will probably go this route as well.

[spytech]

i would like to know user exp. using Di2 DA 11sp with Sram 1190 cassette. is spacing the same?

[petal666]

Of course it is.

[Belisarius]

Important update, analyzed in more detail the experience and here what comes out. Bikerumour: It is important to verify what is being posted, or risk sounding poorly informed. The Bikerumour article was written with information from Shimano. In addition, it had a Shimano released picture of the new cassette.

Further more, Shimano shipped last week, from California, the new gen 'L' (prev one having a K) cassette with doubled pins, exactly as in the pics. Tech torqued it carefully 30-40lbs. Tested it 18 July, 10kms, problems surfaced right away. 19th July, too late, had to race and won the 110km Ottawa Fondo elite category. Conclusion - the new cassette is junk, worse then the K-one described in this forum, Creaks, grinds, flexes. The center of balance of the cluster has shifted to the rear, 21t where they doubled the pins.

At the Ottawa Fondo, the sponsoring repair bus, the head mechanic admitted to the DA 9000 problem and having never fixed it. His recommendation was "Go Ultegra or SRAM" It comes out in strong riders that use the 39/17-19T to accelerate to 30-35km/hr and 53/17-18 to 39-40 km per hour. The more power, the quicker and worse the flaw in the cassette.

The point of failure is triple. The carbon cluster, the disks and chain rubbing. Under load, the carbon cluster flexes on ITSELF (on the freehub), compresses on ITSELF, and gives up NEAR THE PINS. As a result, the 18-21 disks BEND. Easy test: grab the disks and squeeze with your fingers, I got a 0.5mm flex- first I ever saw on any cassette part. Combine these and, under load, the chain tilts down or up, jumps out of the 18/19 cog (twice for me); Cassette tilts or moves in an unbalanced fashion. Put 400+ watts on the acceleration stroke and it surpasses the cassette limits. Chain length is perfect other wise.

3d problem is CHAIN RUB. We changed the DA chain several times, stopping short of trying the SRAM narrower chain. As the spyder-carbon cluster flexes, tolerances change intermittently. Go down or up and the sound comes and goes. No chain-pin problem. As per Shimano's statement to Bikerumour, the chain touches the DA 9000 11 speed in key areas and that the 'chain would eventually wear the noisy areas; my comment is that it happens on the carbon cluster and 17t near it, it is intermittent, oil, load and angle relative and all cassette related. So even when the chain does not rub, the cassette creaks and moves off balance. Soak everything in oil and sound drops a bit but one will also gunk the cassette.

Chainstay is 400mm on my Columbus Pro set up; my Giant TCR is actually 350mm and NEVER has any issues. The full metal Ultegra cassette is whisper quiet and does not bend riding or hand testing it.

Finally, Shimano admitted it on the phone to my store, "We are aware" and "No recall as we did not get enough complaints. We are sending you the new one."

The race experience is interesting as, going fast, I relied more on 12-16t; (37-42km per hr) however, climbing or pushing with the 17-21, the experience was abysmal. 17t is important, as it is the last metal disk before the carbon cluster begins, and that contact point also creates issues. To climb 4% at 30 km hr I drop 17-18-19 sitting or standing and that is when I got the jumps. I accelerate 19-18-17 and I get the grind/creaks.

As things stands, the DA 9000 cassette is badly designed. Gave me twice a scare. Not that Campy does not have its 'bend' problems (See the new Jul 2014 SR release), but a bending problem on a front mech, used intermittently, is nothing like a flexing and bending cassette cluster. So, to shave 30 grams or so, Shimano engineers have missed the mark and their staff is aware, IN NORTH AMERICA AND WORLDWIDE. The 2014 L gen is my 4th cassette in 2 weeks. Am seriously tempted by SRAM or forcing the warranty down to 10 Speed replacement where I can use any of the full metal 10 speed kits out there.

Final question: How does one submit pics here? Tried no luck!

Wow, long post. I have set up plenty of 11spd shimano bikes and am yet to see this issue with the 17 and 18t or any sort of chain jumping. I have da9000 on my personal bike and have only had the cassette carrier problem that we all know about.

Does your bike have 400mm chain stays? I have only seen the problem you are describing on bikes with the shortest possible stays. The other cause would be a chain connecting pin pushed in the wrong way or some sort of aftermarket quick link that is too wide.

I don't know what you read on bikerumor, but I have no reason to think in a million years that shimano is going to change the dimensions of their chains or cassettes.

[pdlpsher1]

Earlier in the thread someone confirmed that the Ultegra also has the carbon spider but it has more pins. Is this still true? It seems like the problems don't affect the Ultegra but if Ultegra is also using a carbon spider then I'm really confused.

I have the DA cassette and no issues here. However I'm not as powerful as you guys. Your problem is a good problem to have

As for the SRAM powerdome cassette, all of the power is transferred to one aluminum cog. Wouldn't this cause the aluminum clog to get chewed up where it touches the freehub body?

[bombertodd]

I don't own a powerdome cassette but from the pictures the one aluminum cog that touches the freehub is wider than a single cog that usually gouges the freehub.

[rmerka]

The part of the SRAM Red 22 cassette that touches the freehub on the large cog is much wider than one cog. After much use of the cassette on a DT 240 and a Chris King freehub, the freehubs look as if they've never had a cassette on them at all. It's a good design.

[petal666]

Important update, analyzed in more detail the experience and here what comes out. Bikerumour: It is important to verify what is being posted, or risk sounding poorly informed.

The full metal Ultegra cassette is whisper quiet and does not bend riding or hand testing it.

Take your own advise perhaps? The Ultegra cassette has a carbon spider also. It says so right on the box.

[spytech]

i guess the best alternative is the SRAM cassette. its lighter, stronger and longer lasting. i should have done this from the start, but i was in a rush and didnt figure out that it would be a perfect match. first shimano groupo in 14 years and they let me down big with this. cassette is a very important part and they failed!!!

[FIJIGabe]

I'm actually swapping all my cassettes over from Ultegra to DA9000. I have seen the new revision, and it seems like Shimano put some thought into the redesign. Additionally, the DA cassettes are noticably lighter than the Ultegra ones.

One thing I had noticed with my 6800 cassettes was that I was getting some noise from the 4th and 5th cogs, regardless of what cassette I was using (I have an 11-23 for home, and an 11-28 for hillier areas). However, I took some time last night and tracked down the problem to a loose hanger. I tightened the hanger up, and the problem went away. BTW, the 4th and 5th cog correspond to the 18t and 17t cogs, respectively.

[Belisarius]

Important update, analyzed in more detail the experience and here what comes out. Bikerumour: It is important to verify what is being posted, or risk sounding poorly informed.

The full metal Ultegra cassette is whisper quiet and does not bend riding or hand testing it.

Take your own advise perhaps? The Ultegra cassette has a carbon spider also. It says so right on the box.

If read more carefully, I never claimed Ultegra 11 Speed is full metal, indeed the 11 speed Ultegra has the carbon cluster. However, the Ultegra 6700 10 Speed, on my Giant TCR bike, is full metal, cluster for cluster. Whisper quiet and wider.

HOWEVER, if one has a DA 9000 11-28, what the mechanics meant is importing the ULTEGRA 6700 11-23t or 12-23 19-21-23 FULL METAL CLUSTER, also a bit wider spaced, into the 11-28 9000 cassette, replacing the 19-21-23 carbon cluster. My configuration, 12-25, has an 18-19-21 carbon cluster without equivalent in the CS-6700 configuration.

Shimano had shipped (24 hrs) the replacement Ultegra, flexing is less (or will come back shortly) and I expect it on the carbon cluster. I think the heavier cassette itself maybe spins more quietly? the narrow spacing between 17 and 21st still make for a lot of grinding, and returning the bike at the shop. Meanwhile, have my whisper quiet 10 speed Ultegra based secondary bike, and will train on it.

I think the engineers at Shimano missed the whole carbon on metal angle, as well as tolerances. Measuring the spaces between the 11 speed cogs and my 10 speed (wider), 12-13 is wider than 17-19, and 19-21 wider. On my two 10 speed cassettes the cogs are equally spaced and 0.25-0.3 mm wider. All the tweaking done, am inclined to assess that the DA derailleur and chain engagement above 17T will never be able to keep up with the 11 speed spacing. As is, I only have 8 functional gears, 39;53 with 12, 13, 14, 15, 16. 17t narrows and touches the carbon, angles change and the creaking grinding and catching commences.

Shimano has promised a resolution but am skeptic it will come anytime soon. I think replacing in the set with the DA 10 Speed shimano + older metal Ultegra cassette is the way. Or try SRAM 11 speed?

[Imaking20]

And here I am looking for a replacement group for my RED YAW because I'm tired of how noisy the cassette and rear shifting has become. There has to be a cleaner shifting cassette option.

[Belisarius]

And here I am looking for a replacement group for my RED YAW because I'm tired of how noisy the cassette and rear shifting has become. There has to be a cleaner shifting cassette option.

- Assuming your cable is functional, my last poorly done ex-shop never lubricated it and it frayed inside over several month until it snapped. A tearing cable will result in poor index adjustment and creaking
- Assuming your hanger bolt and derailleur angle are perfect- and the derailleur never leaned or touched anything that bent it, or the hangar bolt, and the derailleur and the cogs are in the same plane
- Assuming the derailleur is indeed working
- Assuming the rear wheel is locked perfectly to not affect the angle (took me a while to learn I did it wrong and the tolerance is 0.5 mm max when tightening the skews)
- Assuming the cassette has not been damaged or worn prematurely by a bad chain etc and the chain is good

If the items above are ok, then indeed look for a replacement. However, the last time I got annoyed of a rear noisy gear, one of the above was always the culprit and the problem was always resolved. Usually I get one incident per 7000kms maybe, and last two times it was cable and hangar bolt adjustment. However, I accidentally leaned/hit the derailleur a few times without realizing the effect. Never done it since.

The nuisance with the current posting, the DA 9000 11 speed cassette is that I have yet to ride a single incident free km on any of the gears (17-23) mentioned above. 3 DA 9000, x1 Ultegra 6800 cassette, cable replaced, chain swapped, wheel set free hub etc no solution. After I broke in riding a standard crankset, and my power went up, one of these carbon cluster cassettes does not last me a few pedal stroked.

Has got the be the most annoying thing ever, having a pro bike set up which I simply cannot ride other than to realize it does not work and return it back at the shop that is trying everything to resolve it. More so when Shimano reps admit to it.