Dura Ace 9000 11 speed cassette- rubish product design

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
104
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:18 pm

by 104

Not real sure which gear I was in when it broke, it's an 11-25 cassette, I'm guessing in my 17 or 19?

The bike was perfectly dialed. I've spent nearly a decade as a mechanic in some very high-end shops. I've recently had this bike dialed by mechanics wrenching for national-level elite teams.

The problem isn't a mal-adjusted drivetrain, I can promise you that.

The first of my cassettes that exploded was one of the first available in the US. Did that have something to do with it? I don't know, maybe. But when I spoke to Shimano about that one the tech rep didn't seem to be too terribly surprised.

Since posting the photo to friends I've had a few others pipe up about this happening to them. At the end of the day now though, we're at what, 10-15 cassettes that have this problem? Can you imagine how many 9000 cassettes are out there?

This still seems to be a relatively rare problem, but it's certainly not isolated.

pdlpsher1
Posts: 1332
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

104 wrote:At the end of the day now though, we're at what, 10-15 cassettes that have this problem? Can you imagine how many 9000 cassettes are out there?

This still seems to be a relatively rare problem, but it's certainly not isolated.


You are not counting the broken ones occurring on pro teams. When they break something they are unlikely to report it here.

by Weenie


11.4
Posts: 1099
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 4:33 am

by 11.4

pdlpsher1 wrote:
104 wrote:At the end of the day now though, we're at what, 10-15 cassettes that have this problem? Can you imagine how many 9000 cassettes are out there?

This still seems to be a relatively rare problem, but it's certainly not isolated.


You are not counting the broken ones occurring on pro teams. When they break something they are unlikely to report it here.


Please. We also aren't counting the broken ones belonging to illiterate cyclists who can't write complaints. And ones that broke in Tibet and whose owners' letters haven't traveled by yak to a national post office yet. If a pro team, which will be sponsored, has any significant number of cassette failures, we'll certainly hear about it and you can bet that Shimano will.

Remember the SRAM Red front shifter problems? More of a pro problem than an amateur one, yet we heard plenty about it. Simple fact is, there's a very small number of failures and so far what we've heard they've been clustered with a much smaller group of users. Let's see all the Shimano-sponsored pro bikes being built with Ultegra cassettes instead of Dura Ace, like SRAM Red bikes were built with lower-level SRAM front shifters, and then your statement at least makes sense.

Nothing says that this isn't a serious equipment failure when it happens, or that Shimano isn't going to be looking at it. It just means that figuring the cause will be difficult and any statistical failure expert will say that there was something about the bikes or the wrenches on those bikes that was probably at fault -- it's the only statistically valid explanation for why you get repeat failures for a very few individual riders. There isn't enough information to say exactly why the cassettes DID fail, but there IS enough information to say that statistically the cassettes are meeting realistic reliability expectations.

4914
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:23 pm

by 4914

Hi Eric, I cant be sure what gear I was on at the time (I'm sure there are a few pro's out there who've used that phrase before :wink: )...

but I wasn't changing gears, I was in the gear at the time it broke.

You have an excellent point in that a cassette should be able to deal with other minor forces and not break apart.

Simple fact is however, I've broken three DA cassettes.
I've got SRAM cassette on now and it works perfectly, gears change precisely... absolutely nothing wrong and all I did was put it on(myself) and adjust the gears. That's it.

As I said before there are no issues now with the bike now and there wasn't before hand, bought a SRAM cassette and problem solved... but if you simply can not accept that this product is a bad design after you break one... Try you luck with the following tips from 11.4

"I'd honestly suggest that you have the bike hangar and drive train alignment checked by someone who really knows what they're doing (preferably a good frame builder). Go to a different chain and intentionally change the number of links. Change the b-screw setting. And so on. Be sure the free hub isn't sticking at all, nor the rear derailleur jockey wheels -- fastest way to get this kind of failure is if a couple links fold up and jam on the cassette right above the upper jockey wheel -- you'll have a failure essentially without warning even if the cause has been there all along or since a change induced the scenario. My point is that there's a way to tear a cassette spider apart, and it can come about from a combination of issues that is almost impossible to diagnose or predict. The cassette is generally reliable and riders shouldn't be hesitant about using them, but if you do start to have problems with one, I'd look at the whole drivetrain and its geometry to see what is causing this"

uraqt
Posts: 810
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:53 am

by uraqt

Not a Shimano guy so I wouldn't have noticed in any pix, but is it possible that the Pro teams are/have been using Ultegra cassettes?

C

104
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:18 pm

by 104

@11.4 "any statistical failure expert will say that there was something about the bikes or the wrenches on those bikes that was probably at fault"

The problem with that analysis is that the first cassette broke while on my steel bike with King R45 wheels and the second one broke on my carbon bike with ENVE wheels. The first bike I built myself, top to bottom, the second bike was built by an elite-level mechanic who makes a living being contracted by professional teams (continental and Pro Tour) as a mechanic, top to bottom.

The steel bike is 9070 Di2, the carbon bike is 9000 mechanical.

Both were using Dura-Ace chains.

Before these two cassettes, I've never had a cassette fail in anyway (other than my expectations of reasonable noise control, which the first-gen Red cassette failed miserably).

pdlpsher1
Posts: 1332
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

uraqt wrote:Not a Shimano guy so I wouldn't have noticed in any pix, but is it possible that the Pro teams are/have been using Ultegra cassettes?

C


Since the Ultegra cassette also uses a carbon spider their only choices would be either Campy or Sram. And this would likely violate their sponsorship agreement with Shimano.

pdlpsher1
Posts: 1332
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

104 wrote:@11.4 "any statistical failure expert will say that there was something about the bikes or the wrenches on those bikes that was probably at fault"

The problem with that analysis is that the first cassette broke while on my steel bike with King R45 wheels and the second one broke on my carbon bike with ENVE wheels. The first bike I built myself, top to bottom, the second bike was built by an elite-level mechanic who makes a living being contracted by professional teams (continental and Pro Tour) as a mechanic, top to bottom.

The steel bike is 9070 Di2, the carbon bike is 9000 mechanical.

Both were using Dura-Ace chains.

Before these two cassettes, I've never had a cassette fail in anyway (other than my expectations of reasonable noise control, which the first-gen Red cassette failed miserably).


11.4 would say since YOU broke two in a row it must be user error :mrgreen:

104
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:18 pm

by 104

I agree, it IS "user error". This user shouldn't have put a second one on in the first place.

Ceebers1
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:29 am

by Ceebers1

CS-9001... Coming to a bike shop near you...

Briscoelab
Posts: 1725
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:01 pm

by Briscoelab

9001 IS coming. Shifters at least. Will be here shortly.

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DMF
Posts: 1062
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:14 am
Location: Sweden

by DMF

When will people learn, never, never, EVER, buy first generation of anything. Ever. It's bound to be flawed. :)

Oh, the list of self-imploding first generation bike products is so long, bike manufacturers just fix them quick enough that we don't remember them later on. But think back over the last 10, 15, 20 years... That list of parts and standards is a mile long.

Remember early HollowTechII? Yeah, changing bearings every third month is the new black. Haha.

drollin
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:25 pm

by drollin

I have exactly the same issue. Brand new 9000 Di2 drivetrain and the cassette in the top three gears where the carbon body attaches all creak under torque.

OwenJames
Posts: 166
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:16 pm

by OwenJames

Not happy at all about the 9001 revision of the shifters with no announcement or list of issues fixed by Shimano. Imagine any modern software company doing the same thing!

by Weenie


eric
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
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by eric

Actually we do it all the time.

But you are right to complain about Shimano doing it.

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