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What's with the pricing of (some) carbon road frames?
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Author:  konky [ Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's with the pricing of (some) carbon road frames?

Average age of MTB rider 15-30yrs old
Average age of Road cyclist 30-45yrs old

Road cyclists are generally in a different stage in their lives and can afford to spend more. The market for pro level equipment has grown massively in the last 20 years and the manufacture of the product has grown accordingly. Cycle equipment at the highest level possible has never been more affordable. We live in very exiting times in the world of cycling.

Pricing is led by its market

Author:  bricky21 [ Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's with the pricing of (some) carbon road frames?

Yeah, but what's leading the market? BS marketing for the most part. Imo of course :wink:

Author:  Weenie [ Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's with the pricing of (some) carbon road frames?


Author:  RussellS [ Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's with the pricing of (some) carbon road frames?

A relevant story.

http://reviews.roadbikereview.com/eurob ... unds-17400

Author:  bricky21 [ Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's with the pricing of (some) carbon road frames?

$17,400 with Tufo's. LOL!

Author:  Max Gravity [ Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's with the pricing of (some) carbon road frames?

Whenever I see the brands top model with Di or EPS kit, full carbon wheel and so on with a price tag reminding of a small car
I can't help wondering how many they actually sell.
I have seen some on the road over the year and it is always an old guy that have bought "the last bike I ever buy".
My bikes are in the same range but built up over the years.

Any shop owner who can chip in on how common it is that people come in and get a complete top off the line bike,
(Cannondale, Trek whatever)

Author:  mattr [ Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's with the pricing of (some) carbon road frames?

Max Gravity wrote:
I can't help wondering how many they actually sell.
Virtually none in the grand scheme of things.
Chatting to a mate a few years ago about this (he's a senior tech bloke for the manufacturer). Their top of the range models, both XC and Road, retailing at about 7 and 9 thousand euros respectively at the time, they were only building up between 10-15 of each size (5 or 6 sizes) for the entire European dealer network. The frames used in the halo models are used (with different colour schemes) in another 4 or 5 models with lower specced kit. They (apparently) sell about 8-10000 of each frame a year. Most of the sales are the bottom two in the range available on those frame (at ~2-3000 euro).

Author:  konky [ Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's with the pricing of (some) carbon road frames?

bricky21 wrote:
Yeah, but what's leading the market? BS marketing for the most part. Imo of course :wink:


Market and marketing are two very different things.

Market is represented by those that buy the product. I think it's true that bike manufacturers don't make much money on their top end products per se but they do sell a lot of mid ranged stuff off the back of it. BMW sell way more 320i cars than anything else but tend to advertise their top end stuff.

20 years ago pro level gear was not readily available to the general public. A pro level frame was proportionately much more expensive than now. Road cycling now successfully appeals to affluent professionals or perhaps more importantly to those that aspire to be affluent professionals. When I was a kid most road cyclists had beards and mostly lived in the north (of England) and went on caravanning holidays.

Author:  sawyer [ Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's with the pricing of (some) carbon road frames?

konky wrote:
bricky21 wrote:
Yeah, but what's leading the market? BS marketing for the most part. Imo of course :wink:


Market and marketing are two very different things.

Market is represented by those that buy the product. I think it's true that bike manufacturers don't make much money on their top end products per se but they do sell a lot of mid ranged stuff off the back of it. BMW sell way more 320i cars than anything else but tend to advertise their top end stuff.

20 years ago pro level gear was not readily available to the general public. A pro level frame was proportionately much more expensive than now. Road cycling now successfully appeals to affluent professionals or perhaps more importantly to those that aspire to be affluent professionals. When I was a kid most road cyclists had beards and mostly lived in the north (of England) and went on caravanning holidays.


Eh up? Muck 'n brass?

Yes there are two road cultures in the UK but the dominant one now is the southern based affluent one.

Beards are in full retreat!

Author:  prendrefeu [ Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's with the pricing of (some) carbon road frames?

I thought I'd add something interesting to note, here.
On Saturday's ride we (myself and riding buddy) stopped by a shop to take a break from the 115° heat outside, and we were at mile 90 contemplating cutting out a 17mi portion because we still had to make it back home... anyway, at this shop they sell Scott, Cannondale, Yeti, Moots, plenty of top names... and Raleigh. A fairly average style shop in terms of the range of what they offer, brands, etc:.

The owner and I were pretty much in agreement about the Raleigh Militus (and the same frame as the Diamondback Podium), and absolutely amazing frame that can be had - complete - for less than the cost of just a frameset from the other big-name brands (listed in OP's list) and blows those other top-end frames off the road.

That is to say that there are exceptional frames out there, and a lot of the pricing, sadly, is strictly associated with marketing the exclusivity pricing of the brand and not necessarily associated with the product's purported exceptional qualities.

Author:  konky [ Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's with the pricing of (some) carbon road frames?

A couple of things

First off I think that Stevens looks well priced considering the spec. It has a spec that you would normally have to put together yourself. To be able to buy a complete bike like that I think is new. The RCA for example is spec'd with high end stuff, but ordinarily none the less.

Secondly following on from prendrefeu's (hopefully I've written that right this time, I'm wearing my reading glasses) comment about strategic pricing- it is a well known marketing ploy to substantiate a product by pricing it high i.e. it must be good because it's expensive. I have to admit that I am one of those sad people who will only buy high priced cycling products in the vain hope that price = quality. I'm sure I've been caught out occasionally.

Author:  HUMP DIESEL [ Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's with the pricing of (some) carbon road frames?

prendrefeu wrote:
The owner and I were pretty much in agreement about the Raleigh Militus (and the same frame as the Diamondback Podium), and absolutely amazing frame that can be had - complete - for less than the cost of just a frameset from the other big-name brands (listed in OP's list) and blows those other top-end frames off the road.

That is to say that there are exceptional frames out there, and a lot of the pricing, sadly, is strictly associated with marketing the exclusivity pricing of the brand and not necessarily associated with the product's purported exceptional qualities.


Here in lies the answer to the question.
1. The top manufacturers sell for what they do, because people will buy them.

2. They buy them because that is what is perceived as the piece or part to be on. The example of Raleigh and Diamondback are two great examples of exceptional bikes that will not gain a large market share, because the people buying bikes will always perceive them as inferior and not what they see as the majority of bikes on any given ride or race.

Peer pressure exist even in the local group you ride with. If enough guys in a group started buying the Diamondback, and really started pushing it, more and more of the group would start to agree that the DB is a great bike, but there will be that group that says," Yeah, its nice, but its not a ______" You can fill that blank in with any relevant high end frame out there.

My biggest concern with the price of bikes is that I always look at how much car I could buy for that price and that usually always puts me back on an allow frame with some good wheels, instead of a high end carbon frame with the same wheels.

HUMP

Author:  airwise [ Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's with the pricing of (some) carbon road frames?

The Raleigh/ DB situation is indeed interesting.

IIRC, back in the day, Raleigh bought the DB brand primarily because they wanted to sell MTB's and people in the UK were more likely to buy a "premium" American brand of Mountain Bike than they were a Raleigh, which they associated with Choppers and shopping bikes.

What goes around...

Author:  konky [ Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's with the pricing of (some) carbon road frames?

HUMP there is another way of looking at the bike/car analogy. Yes you can buy a budget car for the 18,000 USD you can spend on a 5kg superbike. But a 5kg superbike is equivalent to a top Ferrari that would cost 200,000 USD. The Ferrari would of course cost much, much more to produce but my point is still valid. For 18,000 USD you are getting the very best bike modern technology can produce.

Even a relatively high end product like a 3T LTD bar may cost half what an AX Lightness bar does. But the 3T bar is still a mass produced item and will cost a fraction of what the AX bar costs to make. Certainly a lot less than half. That makes the AX bar better value.

Few would disagree with the fact that manufacturers don't make much on their top end stuff. The truth is it's the bikes that cost what it costs to buy a budget car that are actually the best value. A Storck frame may cost a lot more than a Cannondale but I can assure you Cannondale make much more from the consumer than Markus Storck does.

HUMP if you want to get more bang for your buck than up your budget.

Author:  prendrefeu [ Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's with the pricing of (some) carbon road frames?

I would actually disagree with that last statement with a: "not necessarily."

We covered the Raleigh Militus/DB Podium example: easy on the budget, outperforms top-end frames.
Component wise?
Another example: Williams Cycling Elan CCS ($179/190g/stiff) vs. Enve Compact Road Bar ($368, 205g, stiff)
Seatpost? OMNI straight comes in just around 100g and can be had for a fraction of what a heavier 3T post would be.

Frames? You'd be surprised how well the FM066SL performs. That's $600 more or less, shipped.

The most bang for the buck comes with doing research and going beyond the brand names or what-everyone-else-is-riding.

Author:  Pharmstrong [ Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's with the pricing of (some) carbon road frames?

Konky, you're a marketing department's wet dream.

Author:  Weenie [ Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's with the pricing of (some) carbon road frames?


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