Paniagua, read my whole post again please, not just selected parts that suit your opinion. I really feel like you read whatever you wanted to read there. Not what I actually said. Quite the opposite actually...
mod edit
What's with the pricing of (some) carbon road frames?
Moderator: robbosmans
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prendrefeu
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Speaking from the non-profit side of things (my organization is in bicycle advocacy) - it is unfair to say that there is no charity from the Industry, but it is fair to say that it is neither consistent, reliable, nor is it always distributed in the most effective ways.
But the details of that statement are for another topic.
Point being:
-The Industry *does* do *some* form of giving, whether directly to some more local (and more effective) organizations or to larger orgs (such as BikesBelong, among others).
-Not all of the Industry does charity work. Some (such as Saris) do MUCH, MUCH more in one fiscal year than other brands (... ahem... see OP's list) do in several years. That contradicts scale of gross/net sales between companies.
However, knowing the industry first hand:
-No, there is not a lot of money to be made in this business. It's really true. Bike shop owners are not rolling around in pools of money. Founders & Owners of the more famous brands are doing well, but they certainly are not exceedingly wealthy. Comfortable? Sure, but a small fraction of what another person in virtually any other industry might have achieved with several decades less toil.
-Pretty much everyone does it because they're passionate about it. ... Which is also why the job market is tough (if you're looking).
-They play to the market's actual scale...
On that latter part, Paniagua you may want to take a look at this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=96468
You can see the issues of scale: The larger the market, the more quantities are sold, the lower the price can be made per unit. Even within one niche, such as Road, there will be less 'high end' builds sold, the majority will be middle to low-range. You need to mentally exclude WW from this topic - we all need to do that - because we are basically a niche within a niche within a niche.... a rare, beautiful niche that the Industry pays attention to, but in terms of sales we're quite small. The majority of buyers out there are not you nor I, they are the average person who likes bikes, rides often or wants to improve their riding - be it mountain, commuting, fitness, bmx, whatever.
Does this make sense?
But the details of that statement are for another topic.
Point being:
-The Industry *does* do *some* form of giving, whether directly to some more local (and more effective) organizations or to larger orgs (such as BikesBelong, among others).
-Not all of the Industry does charity work. Some (such as Saris) do MUCH, MUCH more in one fiscal year than other brands (... ahem... see OP's list) do in several years. That contradicts scale of gross/net sales between companies.
However, knowing the industry first hand:
-No, there is not a lot of money to be made in this business. It's really true. Bike shop owners are not rolling around in pools of money. Founders & Owners of the more famous brands are doing well, but they certainly are not exceedingly wealthy. Comfortable? Sure, but a small fraction of what another person in virtually any other industry might have achieved with several decades less toil.
-Pretty much everyone does it because they're passionate about it. ... Which is also why the job market is tough (if you're looking).
-They play to the market's actual scale...
On that latter part, Paniagua you may want to take a look at this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=96468
You can see the issues of scale: The larger the market, the more quantities are sold, the lower the price can be made per unit. Even within one niche, such as Road, there will be less 'high end' builds sold, the majority will be middle to low-range. You need to mentally exclude WW from this topic - we all need to do that - because we are basically a niche within a niche within a niche.... a rare, beautiful niche that the Industry pays attention to, but in terms of sales we're quite small. The majority of buyers out there are not you nor I, they are the average person who likes bikes, rides often or wants to improve their riding - be it mountain, commuting, fitness, bmx, whatever.
Does this make sense?
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DMF - our standards are different on this.
You are clearly very impressed with developments that don't impress me as much.
Wind tunnels? Been in use in automotive industry for 40 years.
Cycling is about pushing man and bike through air, and they've only just started manufacturing aero road frames FFS!
Re the comments on lugged carbon frames - there isn't anything like the performance difference with the latest techniques for frame construction your comments imply. See C59 which competes with the latest boron infused creations.
I think you're struggling to seperate marketing with genuinely performance enhancing tech. applications.
You are clearly very impressed with developments that don't impress me as much.
Wind tunnels? Been in use in automotive industry for 40 years.
Cycling is about pushing man and bike through air, and they've only just started manufacturing aero road frames FFS!
Re the comments on lugged carbon frames - there isn't anything like the performance difference with the latest techniques for frame construction your comments imply. See C59 which competes with the latest boron infused creations.
I think you're struggling to seperate marketing with genuinely performance enhancing tech. applications.
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Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!!
Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!!
I think the high prices of road bikes come from italian manufacturers like Colnago and Pinarello. They have the credibility to sell expensive bikes and they are very good in marketing.
Non italian brands adjust their prices accordingly, and a lower price can mean lower quality and performance for consumers.
In France most guys think they have to ride expensive carbon bikes, they can afford it generally because they are older.
Time extended their range some years ago with cheaper frames but it was not worth it and they stopped.
Time should be a price reference because their frames are made in France with their own carbon and the labor cost is very expensive in France. They now want to sell at the right price in selected bike shops.
There is no reason for a frame made in Asia to be more expensive than a Time at equal range.
MTB are ridiculously cheap comparatively, probably because riders are younger and more realistic of their needs.
Non italian brands adjust their prices accordingly, and a lower price can mean lower quality and performance for consumers.
In France most guys think they have to ride expensive carbon bikes, they can afford it generally because they are older.
Time extended their range some years ago with cheaper frames but it was not worth it and they stopped.
Time should be a price reference because their frames are made in France with their own carbon and the labor cost is very expensive in France. They now want to sell at the right price in selected bike shops.
There is no reason for a frame made in Asia to be more expensive than a Time at equal range.
MTB are ridiculously cheap comparatively, probably because riders are younger and more realistic of their needs.
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justkeepedaling
- Posts: 1712
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:14 am
sawyer wrote:DMF - our standards are different on this.
You are clearly very impressed with developments that don't impress me as much.
Wind tunnels? Been in use in automotive industry for 40 years.
Cycling is about pushing man and bike through air, and they've only just started manufacturing aero road frames FFS!
Re the comments on lugged carbon frames - there isn't anything like the performance difference with the latest techniques for frame construction your comments imply. See C59 which competes with the latest boron infused creations.
I think you're struggling to seperate marketing with genuinely performance enhancing tech. applications.
The C59 is nowhere near A2J Rolo or Cervelo RCA... Seriously??!?!
sawyer wrote:DMF - our standards are different on this.
You are clearly very impressed with developments that don't impress me as much.
Wind tunnels? Been in use in automotive industry for 40 years.
Cycling is about pushing man and bike through air, and they've only just started manufacturing aero road frames FFS!
Re the comments on lugged carbon frames - there isn't anything like the performance difference with the latest techniques for frame construction your comments imply. See C59 which competes with the latest boron infused creations.
I think you're struggling to seperate marketing with genuinely performance enhancing tech. applications.
+1000 @sawyer thanks for saying this
@DMF I'm surprised you can't keep it on topic, spoiled brat? new to cycling? since my earlier reply was moderated I'll just ask if you're gonna add insults or personal attacks to at least make them funny. My earlier Kool-Aid comment to you was an insult veiled in humor, hope you can use that as an example.
Arguing semantics (not content) seems like the default response on forums, I'm OK with saying I dis-agree with your main point of prices being justified. I don't think that way, I think they are a little inflated!@prendrefeu most here understand the basics of marketing, explaining economy to scale might have been a little un-necessary and although the link you cited was a little dated (2009) and may be less valid after the economy melted down that year, I do get and appreciate your point.
Something no one has done here is post costs, those of us that have many years in the industry (32!!! for me) are familiar with what companies charge (every step of the way) from cost to manufacture, employee pricing, wholesale, and retail. There are some big margins in some products that are out of line with margins of the recent past, and distant past. Not all products are over-priced. And on a lesser related note: I'm happy the industry is in a healthy part of the business cycle right now, hasn't always been this way.
Weeny on!
Last edited by Paniagua on Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
justkeepedaling wrote:sawyer wrote:DMF - our standards are different on this.
You are clearly very impressed with developments that don't impress me as much.
Wind tunnels? Been in use in automotive industry for 40 years.
Cycling is about pushing man and bike through air, and they've only just started manufacturing aero road frames FFS!
Re the comments on lugged carbon frames - there isn't anything like the performance difference with the latest techniques for frame construction your comments imply. See C59 which competes with the latest boron infused creations.
I think you're struggling to seperate marketing with genuinely performance enhancing tech. applications.
The C59 is nowhere near A2J Rolo or Cervelo RCA... Seriously??!?!
Not sure if you're comment is in support of the C59 or not, but my point is the bikes compete in the market against each other, and in the pro peloton, and remember a few hundred grams weight saving could be totally nullified and then some by superior ride quality and handling ... which many on this forum no doubt would say the C59 has.
So yes, they compete.
----------------------------------------
Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!!
Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!!
Sawyer, you took what I said about lugged constructions completely out of context and turned it into something completely different, that I said nothing about. It was an example of trickle down, earlier lugged carbon frames was the creme de la creme of its day. I said nothing of lugged frames being inferior today.
And "Automotive did this and that...", why don't you compare bicycles to smartphones, or aeronautics, or... Scale, remember?
I've maid my point, and my mission is not to convert those who think otherwise. I have nothing else to add here.
prendrefeu, excellent post!
And "Automotive did this and that...", why don't you compare bicycles to smartphones, or aeronautics, or... Scale, remember?
I've maid my point, and my mission is not to convert those who think otherwise. I have nothing else to add here.
prendrefeu, excellent post!
DMF, your comment in relation to lugged frames was
"I use Shimano as an example, the same goes for just about everything else, people wanting a textreme-frame today for the price of a lugged tube carbon frame back then, or you may have a molded UD-fibre frame today for the cost of a lugged frame back then, ...that's trickle down - the ceiling has just been raised by a fair bit today, maybe your ego can't handle not being top dog anymore, is that it?"
What I took from that was that you regarded molded UD-fibre frames as significantly superior to lugged frames and that this "trickle down" (i.e. lugged to UD) was supporting evidence for your wider point. Isn't that what you've said?
My counter is that actually even the latest and greatest frames are only marginally better, and in some cases inferior to the best lugged frames.
Re your point on scale ... two points:
- first, you're significantly qualifying your argument introducing this
- second, on the wind-tunnel use ... this is so elementary for trying to maximise efficiency for objects moving through the air that it's amazing the industry has taken so long to take it seriously in relation to road bikes.
BTW, Apple and Samsung are pretty big, but then so are Giant and Merida
Finally, wind tunnels have been used for a very long time also in aeronautics
"I use Shimano as an example, the same goes for just about everything else, people wanting a textreme-frame today for the price of a lugged tube carbon frame back then, or you may have a molded UD-fibre frame today for the cost of a lugged frame back then, ...that's trickle down - the ceiling has just been raised by a fair bit today, maybe your ego can't handle not being top dog anymore, is that it?"
What I took from that was that you regarded molded UD-fibre frames as significantly superior to lugged frames and that this "trickle down" (i.e. lugged to UD) was supporting evidence for your wider point. Isn't that what you've said?
My counter is that actually even the latest and greatest frames are only marginally better, and in some cases inferior to the best lugged frames.
Re your point on scale ... two points:
- first, you're significantly qualifying your argument introducing this
- second, on the wind-tunnel use ... this is so elementary for trying to maximise efficiency for objects moving through the air that it's amazing the industry has taken so long to take it seriously in relation to road bikes.
BTW, Apple and Samsung are pretty big, but then so are Giant and Merida
Finally, wind tunnels have been used for a very long time also in aeronautics
----------------------------------------
Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!!
Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!!
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Tinea Pedis
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There have been multiple warnings and deleted posts that have come out of this thread, simply because people have not seemed to be able to debate a point courteously.
We are one more of those posts away from this thread being locked. And someone having a holiday from WW. I realise it gets heated guys, but getting petty is not required.
We are one more of those posts away from this thread being locked. And someone having a holiday from WW. I realise it gets heated guys, but getting petty is not required.
I agree, there is a diminishing return in the higher priced frames and components but I am glad to know such high end things exist to advance cycling and trickle down to me later.
For those who can afford the same bike the pros ride, all the power to you.
Buying a $5K frame probably won't get you 5x the benefit of a $1K frame.
Same goes for most every other part in cycling, but there will always be a market for overpriced goods.
At least the stuff we like can actually be used and ridden.
In theory, most anyone can save enough money to buy the same bike the pros use within a few years.
This cannot be said of other pro rides like F1 cars, airplanes, yachts, or MotoGP.
Diminishing returns could be a lot worse.
Expensive alcohol is literally pi$$ed away.
Some high end watches sell for over $100K, but a $1 quartz watch will keep better time.
Buying original art/paintings for thousands or millions of dollars strikes me as odd, since it easier and less complex than making a house.
Finally diamonds; millions of people own them and more are dug up every year.
For those who can afford the same bike the pros ride, all the power to you.
Buying a $5K frame probably won't get you 5x the benefit of a $1K frame.
Same goes for most every other part in cycling, but there will always be a market for overpriced goods.
At least the stuff we like can actually be used and ridden.
In theory, most anyone can save enough money to buy the same bike the pros use within a few years.
This cannot be said of other pro rides like F1 cars, airplanes, yachts, or MotoGP.
Diminishing returns could be a lot worse.
Expensive alcohol is literally pi$$ed away.
Some high end watches sell for over $100K, but a $1 quartz watch will keep better time.
Buying original art/paintings for thousands or millions of dollars strikes me as odd, since it easier and less complex than making a house.
Finally diamonds; millions of people own them and more are dug up every year.
Just saw the price off the DA BMC GranFondo. $13,999!!!!! Now, I'm all for high end bikes, but 14k. That's bordering on "the industry is nuts". That's a Ducati 848 price range or brand new car. Next were gonna have 105 equipped bikes at $5000. Entry into this sport will be non-exsistent at this rate. Just don't get it!
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SLCBrandon
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My thoughts exactly (Ducati 848) on these "higher end" bikes. I know a Ducati is more mass produced but, good lord, the heads alone have more engineering in them than an entire bicycle, start to finish. And it's also a luxury item to boot.
It's honestly getting ridiculous.
It's honestly getting ridiculous.
Average age of MTB rider 15-30yrs old
Average age of Road cyclist 30-45yrs old
Road cyclists are generally in a different stage in their lives and can afford to spend more. The market for pro level equipment has grown massively in the last 20 years and the manufacture of the product has grown accordingly. Cycle equipment at the highest level possible has never been more affordable. We live in very exiting times in the world of cycling.
Pricing is led by its market
Average age of Road cyclist 30-45yrs old
Road cyclists are generally in a different stage in their lives and can afford to spend more. The market for pro level equipment has grown massively in the last 20 years and the manufacture of the product has grown accordingly. Cycle equipment at the highest level possible has never been more affordable. We live in very exiting times in the world of cycling.
Pricing is led by its market
Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓ Broad Selection ✓ Worldwide Delivery ✓
www.starbike.com
