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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:38 pm 
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Posts: 276
That AR1 you showed the weight from is a 51. If my 58 FRD weighs close, I'll take that as a win :)

However, if I had the choice between an AR1 for $2500, and the FRD for $4000, I don't know which way I'd go. I waffled back and forth between them and stripping an AR3. The FRD was available, so that won out over having to strip and retrofit the also available AR3.


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:12 pm 
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Location: On the bike
Yes it is a 51. At this point there aren't many examples for weight quite yet. Hopefully over the nxt few months that will change to get a better idea on the weights.

AR1 frame

51: 1071g/335g (Stalken)
58: 1216g/331g (cyclenutnz)

So far have these sizes and weights for AR FRD

54:1037g/334g (trilocus)
58:1052g/328g (liketoride)
58: 1100g ish/334g (aaric)

At this point, weight seems far off from the 905g or whatever the final production weight was for a size 56 Felt AR FRD frame. The above weights (even subtracting out liners, bolts, RD hanger...etc.) is a ways off IMO. SuperDave said he was going to post a video weighing final production FRD and AR1 frames to YouTube. I don't believe he has yet.


Last edited by 53x12 on Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:24 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:12 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:51 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:18 am
Posts: 585
Location: Cambridge, New Zealand
53x12 wrote:
Looks to be more in the 75-100g range difference if even that.


Don't think I've posted the full weight breakdown of my 58 AR1:
Image

The ride is fantastic. The only reason I haven't posted pics yet is that I still haven't got the cages I want (Arundel distributor not carrying the Dave-O) so it's not finished.

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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:19 am 
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cyclenutnz I'll add your frame weight to my running list. Thanks for the weights. Please share pictures when you get the chance and get the cages you want.

Just FYI for the discussion on weight since this is WW after all.

SuperDave wrote:
I don't have frame weights for every size of every model with artwork. We've targeted the following for a raw 56cm frame:
MODEL FRAME / FORK
AR FRD 900g / 325g
AR1, AR3R 1050g / 350g
AR2, AR3E 1000g / 350g
AR4, AR5 1100g / 375g

The only raw frame I have to measure is the AR FRD and it was 908g for the frame and 331g for the uncut fork.


Graphics package on the FRD and AR1 are fairly minimalistic to being with. What, 20-30g maybe?


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:54 am 
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Location: Irvine, CA
53x12 wrote:
Yeah climbing performance is very subjective, but it seems it is definitely up to the task. Very good.

Well, I think I will be waiting for the '15 models to start hitting Felt inventory later this summer/early fall. Will give me a chance to decide between the AR1 or FRD frame set. The heart says FRD, but I think the frontal lobe is telling me AR1.


Or now.
Image
-SD

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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:28 am 
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Posts: 13
Superdave - can you please explain the logic of so many bike makers (Felt included) using the hidden rear brake vs the traditional front brake.

I would think that aero wise doing an integrated front brake would yield much more gains that putting the rear brake in the awkward under BB position. I am surprised that you don't use the Shimano dual mount front brake (like the Trek for example) that is supposed to be more aerodynamic but go to the trouble of hiding the rear brake when it is already kind of hidden by the seat stays. It seems a lot of trouble (plus the noted disadvantages of poorer braking that seems to plague these designs - see Marcel Wurst at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUuaKbZLWgU)

Just looking for reasons for these decisions. BTW I do like the look of the hidden rear brake but the benefits seem very small aero wise for the trouble yet no effort made on front brake which must have much more aero impact.


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:11 am 
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SuperDave wrote:
53x12 wrote:
Yeah climbing performance is very subjective, but it seems it is definitely up to the task. Very good.

Well, I think I will be waiting for the '15 models to start hitting Felt inventory later this summer/early fall. Will give me a chance to decide between the AR1 or FRD frame set. The heart says FRD, but I think the frontal lobe is telling me AR1.


Or now.
Image
-SD



Does that mean '14 AR1 frame sets are hitting Felt inventory as well? Local shop said they wouldn't be able to order anything for me until August/September when I spoke to them 4-6 weeks ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:16 am 
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cunn1n9 wrote:
Superdave - can you please explain the logic of so many bike makers (Felt included) using the hidden rear brake vs the traditional front brake.

I would think that aero wise doing an integrated front brake would yield much more gains that putting the rear brake in the awkward under BB position. I am surprised that you don't use the Shimano dual mount front brake (like the Trek for example) that is supposed to be more aerodynamic but go to the trouble of hiding the rear brake when it is already kind of hidden by the seat stays. It seems a lot of trouble (plus the noted disadvantages of poorer braking that seems to plague these designs - see Marcel Wurst at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUuaKbZLWgU)

Just looking for reasons for these decisions. BTW I do like the look of the hidden rear brake but the benefits seem very small aero wise for the trouble yet no effort made on front brake which must have much more aero impact.



From what I have read, an exposed front brake costs you 30-50g of drag. 75-80% of that can be gained back by using something like a TriRig Omega or a Hooker Aero SL brake (hope I am getting those drag numbers correct as I am going off the top of my head. SD will know for sure). A completely integrated front brake like the Giant uses, can be a pain to setup, you have lots of housing and cable exposed going down to the front brake and usually you don't get great stopping power or modulation.

I agree regarding the rear brake location. I think shielding it with the design of the seat stays might make more sense. However, for Felt, by placing the brake in the BB area that allowed them to get rid of the brake bridge and were able to tune the seat stays more for comfort since the brake was no longer there.

There is no reason why you can't purchase the Shimano Dura Ace 9010 Integrated front brake and put that on the bike yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:45 pm 
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I think SuperDave was referencing the AR3 EPS which are in stock, and have a lighter frame weight than the AR1, though the pic he showed is a mechanical routed bike...


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:54 pm 
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53x12 wrote:
Graphics package on the FRD and AR1 are fairly minimalistic to being with. What, 20-30g maybe?


It all adds up though: So 900 + 25g paint. +100g (guesstimate for a 58 vs 56, based on cervelo's published 10% increase in weight for a 56 vs 58). Plus bolts (10g?) plus grommits (10g?) + rear derailleur hanger 15g? Plus cable Liners taped and stickers (guessing 30g)

So we should be seeing 58 FRds coming out of the box as packed (which is how I weighed mine) in the range of 1090g +/- whatever their manufacturing tolerances are.


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:50 pm 
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aaric wrote:
I think SuperDave was referencing the AR3 EPS which are in stock, and have a lighter frame weight than the AR1, though the pic he showed is a mechanical routed bike...


That picture is of the '15 AR3. Looks like they are slightly changing things up on the '15 builds slightly. SD reply was in reference to '15s already here.

No offense to Felt, but there is a reason that the AR3 EPS was the only complete build in stock at their warehouse a few weeks ago when my shop checked. Those who are Campy users make up a small subset of our fellow brethren. Those who are Campy lovers and interested in a Felt as their new bike is even smaller. Didn't surprise me one bit, no matter how "great" that EPS build might have been. SRAM or Shimano is going to be what the vast majority/super-majority of Felt buyers will want.


aaric wrote:
It all adds up though: So 900 + 25g paint. +100g (guesstimate for a 58 vs 56, based on cervelo's published 10% increase in weight for a 56 vs 58). Plus bolts (10g?) plus grommits (10g?) + rear derailleur hanger 15g? Plus cable Liners taped and stickers (guessing 30g)

So we should be seeing 58 FRds coming out of the box as packed (which is how I weighed mine) in the range of 1090g +/- whatever their manufacturing tolerances are.



I agree it adds up. Just for a frame that was touted to be low 900s in a size 56 but seeing a size 58 come in at 1050-1100g is a little disappointing.

I also doubt there is a 100g penalty from a 56 to 56. Otherwise the same would hold true the opposite way from a 56 to a 54 or even 51.

Once more AR FRD frames get into the hands of WW's will we get a better idea of its true weight range. Just not enough of a data sample at the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:57 pm 
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Comment of the day re AR: "Nice bike: You have no draft now"

Look at the cervelo weights for the RCA:

Image

3x the difference in weight going from 56-58 as there is from 52-56... I think I recall reading something similar about the AR using different layups in the larger sizes too, but I could be wrong.

The AR1 data cyclenutnz posted seems to confirm a big jump in 58 weights, though I don't think we've seen anyone post a 56?


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:53 am 
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Posts: 132
trilocus, what aero bars are you using?
Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:02 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:16 pm
Posts: 142
Andrew69 wrote:
trilocus, what aero bars are you using?
Thanks


enve aero road bar in size 44


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:26 pm 
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Posts: 507
cunn1n9 wrote:
Superdave - can you please explain the logic of so many bike makers (Felt included) using the hidden rear brake vs the traditional front brake.


It is probably the same reason Campagnolo does not bother with dual pivot in the rear. You don't need as much power, so you can get by with a simple pivot design.


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:26 pm 


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