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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:25 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:26 am
Posts: 46
SuperDave wrote:
ichobi wrote:
@SuperDave, not sure if this has been asked, but what's the thinking behind the decision to leave to front brake unhidden like other TT/ Aero road bikes? Is it faster this way in your testing?


We did some testing with shrouded brakes like our new DA2 uses. There are some marginal gains to be had but the AR was built around the best balance of low weight, high torsional and drivetrain stiffness, low aerodynamic drag, and a high degree of vertical and cockpit compliance. Building a fork that housed the brake would push the bike weight up over 1100 grams like the Propel. We wanted to keep the AR FRD under 900g during development and keep the fork compliant for-aft.

Using "regular" Shimano brakes on the bike allows the bike to perform in 4 other key categories beyond aerodynamics as well. It freed up development time to focus on taking the ~20g of added drag from the conventional calilper and ~10g of drag from conventional front brake cable routing and saving drag with fork and downtube blend and shape modification.

The AR3 EPS does use a centerpull aero front brake mounted on the front of the bike and for those looking for aerodynamics over pure stopping power or all conditions braking performance there are calipers like the TriRig that'll give back 75% of the drag a Shimano dual pivot brake adds.

I'm running one of our IA brake calipers on the front of my AR1 as I'm typically riding 90 minute parking lot crits, not Alpine descents so giving up a few feet of braking distance doesn't concern me if I can shorten the finish line by a few feet gaining aero performance.

-SD


Could you elaborate on what you mean by the IA brake caliper and felt f-brake from the white paper? Do you have pictures and are they available for sale?


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:34 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:22 pm
Posts: 202
Just read through the full thread, really impressed by Dave's honest and open approach to this new bike. As has been said before many other big manufacturers should take his example and connect with the consumers at this level. It really makes the difference. As other have said before I always kind of glanced over Felt bikes and didn't pay them much attention, but I am now realizing the error in my ways!

I'm looking for a new aero frame for next year, one that I can road race and TT on, so the AR looks like it is one of a few that fits that bill. I think this was touched on earlier in the thread, but just looking for clarification.

Is the frame (in terms of layup etc) different between the AR5 105 and the AR1 frameset only version? I have a top end of £1500 for my new frame for next year, so would I really notice much difference between buying the AR1 frame only and buying the AR5 and stripping off the groupset?

Thanks.
Michael


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:34 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:02 pm 
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in the industry

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:57 am
Posts: 366
Location: Irvine, CA
mitchgixer6 wrote:
Just read through the full thread, really impressed by Dave's honest and open approach to this new bike. As has been said before many other big manufacturers should take his example and connect with the consumers at this level. It really makes the difference. As other have said before I always kind of glanced over Felt bikes and didn't pay them much attention, but I am now realizing the error in my ways!

I'm looking for a new aero frame for next year, one that I can road race and TT on, so the AR looks like it is one of a few that fits that bill. I think this was touched on earlier in the thread, but just looking for clarification.

Is the frame (in terms of layup etc) different between the AR5 105 and the AR1 frameset only version? I have a top end of £1500 for my new frame for next year, so would I really notice much difference between buying the AR1 frame only and buying the AR5 and stripping off the groupset?

Thanks.
Michael


Michael,

Thanks for your kind words, glad our brand has caught your attention. I'm a bit behind the posts and all the private messages because of the trade show circuit all September. I'll do my best to get all the answers to the questions posted here and privately.

The frame is a bit heavier in the AR5 lay up (UHC Performance) vs. the upgraded UHC advanced material on the AR1. Both frames feature mechanical or electronic cable routing options and both are built with size specific tube profiles and absolute stiffnesses that are the same. In short, you get the same stiffness on an AR5 as you have with the AR1 but it takes a bit more material to get us there. I also updated the hubset on the AR5 to be compatible with 11 speed shifting systems even though the bike comes with Shimano's 10 speed 105 drivetrain. This allows the wheelset to remain useful in your stable for more than a season or two.

One last anecdote I've been sharing:

The 2014 AR5 bicycle is lighter, stiffer, more aerodynamic, and offers more cockpit compliance than the 2013 AR1.
The 2014 AR5 bicycle is less expensive than the 2013 AR1 frame and it comes with a free 105 kit, wheels, tires, etc!

Perhaps it was a good thing you've ignored Felt until now, you'd have some buyer's remorse if you had a 2013 in the garage.

-
SD

_________________
www.feltracing.com


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:06 pm 
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in the industry

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:57 am
Posts: 366
Location: Irvine, CA
cajer wrote:
SuperDave wrote:
ichobi wrote:
@SuperDave, not sure if this has been asked, but what's the thinking behind the decision to leave to front brake unhidden like other TT/ Aero road bikes? Is it faster this way in your testing?


We did some testing with shrouded brakes like our new DA2 uses. There are some marginal gains to be had but the AR was built around the best balance of low weight, high torsional and drivetrain stiffness, low aerodynamic drag, and a high degree of vertical and cockpit compliance. Building a fork that housed the brake would push the bike weight up over 1100 grams like the Propel. We wanted to keep the AR FRD under 900g during development and keep the fork compliant for-aft.

Using "regular" Shimano brakes on the bike allows the bike to perform in 4 other key categories beyond aerodynamics as well. It freed up development time to focus on taking the ~20g of added drag from the conventional calilper and ~10g of drag from conventional front brake cable routing and saving drag with fork and downtube blend and shape modification.

The AR3 EPS does use a centerpull aero front brake mounted on the front of the bike and for those looking for aerodynamics over pure stopping power or all conditions braking performance there are calipers like the TriRig that'll give back 75% of the drag a Shimano dual pivot brake adds.

I'm running one of our IA brake calipers on the front of my AR1 as I'm typically riding 90 minute parking lot crits, not Alpine descents so giving up a few feet of braking distance doesn't concern me if I can shorten the finish line by a few feet gaining aero performance.

-SD


Could you elaborate on what you mean by the IA brake caliper and felt f-brake from the white paper? Do you have pictures and are they available for sale?


The IA uses a centerpull style "sliding" brake design that is very light and compact and is used on our IA triathlon and DA2 time trial bicycles. This brake is designed to be internal and housed inside the fork. I simply revised the mounting bolt and nut and put it on the front of my AR1.

https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/523548_10202130583092064_1283741464_n.jpg
Image

It is not intended to be installed this way but it may be possible for something similar in function to be developed like this brake to mimic the small aero gains we see in brakes like the Hooker, Modolo, and TriRig Omega.


-SD

_________________
www.feltracing.com


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:25 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:09 pm
Posts: 685
SD,

Why no mechanism on the seat mast mount to allow for zero setback without putting your saddle/sliding it back forth to try and get you there? You have an offset post, or a forward post, but nothing addressed like Giant/BMC have done with the ability to slide the entire mount point forward/aft to accomplish endless saddle positions?

Or, at least offer a zero-offset post option.

Thx


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:49 pm 
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in the industry

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:57 am
Posts: 366
Location: Irvine, CA
Zigmeister wrote:
SD,

Why no mechanism on the seat mast mount to allow for zero setback without putting your saddle/sliding it back forth to try and get you there? You have an offset post, or a forward post, but nothing addressed like Giant/BMC have done with the ability to slide the entire mount point forward/aft to accomplish endless saddle positions?

Or, at least offer a zero-offset post option.

Thx


What saddle position is missing exactly?
What frame size, seat height and BB offset do you need on your bike?
I think we have this covered.
-SD

_________________
www.feltracing.com


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:08 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:50 am
Posts: 4
Zigmeister and SD,

If you move the saddle all the way forward with the post in the road position and measure from the tip of the saddle to the handlebars(Let's say you get 400mm) and then reverse the post to the time trial position and slide the saddle back and still get 400mm or better still more than that, you"ll know wheter all the saddle post positions are covered. Of course this will be contingent on the length of the saddle rails and would not be a good idea if you have to slam the rails all the way in one direction or the other. I once broke a titanium rail when I had it slammed all the way back on my dedicated indoor road bike.

So Dave, This is something you can easily do and put to rest this argument of wheter all saddle positions are covered without having to slam the rails in one direction or another.

As a consumer, I want definite answers and not "I think we have it covered"

Also, I might be interested in buying an AR5 and stripping it down and putting my Record 11 Gruppo on it vs. buying an AR1 frame. So how much of a weight difference is there between an AR5 and AR1 frame. Still bogles my mind that the AR FRD is only available with electronic only as this is what would have been my first choice otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:10 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:57 am
Posts: 366
Location: Irvine, CA
mebo wrote:
Zigmeister and SD,

If you move the saddle all the way forward with the post in the road position and measure from the tip of the saddle to the handlebars(Let's say you get 400mm) and then reverse the post to the time trial position and slide the saddle back and still get 400mm or better still more than that, you"ll know wheter all the saddle post positions are covered. Of course this will be contingent on the length of the saddle rails and would not be a good idea if you have to slam the rails all the way in one direction or the other. I once broke a titanium rail when I had it slammed all the way back on my dedicated indoor road bike.

So Dave, This is something you can easily do and put to rest this argument of wheter all saddle positions are covered without having to slam the rails in one direction or another.

As a consumer, I want definite answers and not "I think we have it covered"

Also, I might be interested in buying an AR5 and stripping it down and putting my Record 11 Gruppo on it vs. buying an AR1 frame. So how much of a weight difference is there between an AR5 and AR1 frame. Still bogles my mind that the AR FRD is only available with electronic only as this is what would have been my first choice otherwise.


I don't know your saddle height and seat preference, some saddles have very limited adjustment and if your seat height were 890mm there may indeed be a spot that cannot be reached. It would be an extreme case and I've learned to never speak in certainties when it comes to bicycle consumers.

The AR5 is about 200g heavier depending on the size than the AR1 frame. I'm unclear why you'd opt for the high end frame (AR FRD) if it were mechanical shifting compatible but not the high end frame that is (AR1)? I'm also suprised that you're looking for an aero advantage but willing to give up the ~7-10 watts shift cables add.

The AR FRD would not hit our sub 900g goal if it were made to be mechanical compatible. Our professional teams' and OE interests far exceed the tiny numbers of frames sold that do need this feature.

Where are you located? It would probably be best to get a tape measure to your local Felt Dealer to verify the AR is going to suit your needs from a fit standpoint. AR5 should be in Felt Dealers' stores by month's end.

-SD

_________________
www.feltracing.com


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:41 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:09 pm
Posts: 685
I'm around 55cm tip of saddle to bars. But, seat length obviously affects that number.

74.5mm BB to saddle.\

About 8mmm offset from saddle tip to BB center.

I run a Scott Foil now in 56cm, with zero offset seatpost.

110mm -10deg 3T integra stem. Williams Aurora SLC saddle.

Right now stem is slammed on the stock Ritchey top cap.

Front of knee is over pedal spindle with this setup.

I really need a 54cm range frame size.


What is the availability of the AR FRD frameset?


Last edited by Zigmeister on Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:05 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:02 pm
Posts: 139
Location: florida
Was this frame designed to be optimized with bottles and cages in place? It doesn't appear so. Frames like the Giant Propel and the Cervelo S5 have flared air foil down tubes to accommodate bottles. Was any of your wind tunnel data with bottles on your frame as well as your competitors you tested (Giant , Cervelo, Scott, etc.) ?


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:34 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:09 pm
Posts: 4
quick question about pricing. it's my impression (i certainly can be wrong) that when you buy a complete bike, there is a break on price as compared to buying a frameset and building it yourself? i'm very interested in the new AR FRD and am trying to figure out the pricing break down from $12,500.

frameset $4000
group $3300 (i've actually found it for as low as $2,900 online)
wheels $2000
bars/stem $700
saddle $150

total $10,150

am i better off just buying the frameset?

_________________
'13 Parlee Z5 SLi (Di2 9070/Enve cockpit/Enve 6.7/Stages Power)
'11 Cervelo S3 (Di2 9070/3T cockpit/Zipp 404/Stages Power)


Last edited by kahoon on Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:27 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:22 pm
Posts: 202
I've found the same thing. Been also considering an S Works venge as well as the Felt, and when you look at the full bike compared to just the frame I can't figure out where they get some of the prices from.

You obviously pay a slight premium for having the bike built for you, but that shouldn't equate to $1350.

If you're comfortable building the bike yourself and you've got all the time


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:28 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:22 pm
Posts: 202
.... Got all the right tools, it certainly seems you'd be better off building it yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:41 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:09 pm
Posts: 4
i build my bikes from a frameset almost 99% of the time, but only because i don't like some of the stock components.

in the case of the AR, other than the saddle, i'm pretty happy with the stock selection of stuff.

just did a quick comparison on the S5 VWD frameset vs. full bike.

full bike: $9,500

frameset build:

$5,900 framset
$3,300 group
$500 bar/stem
$150 sadle
$550 fulcrum 3's

$10,400 total

a savings of $900 when going full bike vs. frameset build!

this makes me believe that the AR FRD full bike should be in the ~ $9,500 range? i'd definitely buy one at that price.

just my $0.02

_________________
'13 Parlee Z5 SLi (Di2 9070/Enve cockpit/Enve 6.7/Stages Power)
'11 Cervelo S3 (Di2 9070/3T cockpit/Zipp 404/Stages Power)


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:35 am 
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in the industry

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:57 am
Posts: 366
Location: Irvine, CA
kahoon wrote:
i build my bikes from a frameset almost 99% of the time, but only because i don't like some of the stock components.
this makes me believe that the AR FRD full bike should be in the ~ $9,500 range? i'd definitely buy one at that price.
just my $0.02


It sounds like you can buy one at that price if you build it yourself from the frameset. Where should I ship the frame? :)

-SD

_________________
www.feltracing.com


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 Post subject: Re: Felt 2014 AR1
Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:35 am 


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