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 Post subject: Re: ROLO sneak peek
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:12 am 
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Location: Luxembourg / Sweden
Thank you all for your feedback!
I will respond to the more techie questions later, we will also have a website up and running by the time of Eurobike where you will be able to read up on the various materials used.
Let me just say that the materials used are never for looks but always for sound engineering reasons and with the emphasis on ride quality.
We currently use a selection of PAN based, pre-impregnated twill, unidirectional (UD) and bi-axial (BIAX) material as well as some local Pitch based reinforcements. These are all prepregs made to our specifications with resin systems specified by us. Some of the ultra high modulus materials used are only made for the aerospace industry and are not widely available. We only have access to these through our engineers background in the industry. These materials cost up to 7 times more than the typical cycle industry standard materials used.
By properly combining these, we can control the compliance and flexibility of the structure very accurately.
While most of the frame should be as stiff as possible to transmit as much of the energy to the ground as possible, we also have to ensure sufficient compliance
at the seat tube, top tube and seat stays in order to provide a degree of comfort to the rider.
Stiffness has to also be balanced with toughness and strength to account for durability and damage mitigation.
Glass, for example, is very stiff, but it wouldn’t make for a good frame material!
Below is a pic just taken of a fairly typical frame being built up just now.
That is the just out of the autoclave raw unfinished frame, this one is missing the fd bracket (less than 1 gram) but otherwise complete
Image

Re name: Rollo, Mayne, Aquitaine are the three lions in the British Royal Coat of Arms. The top lion, Rollo, is named after Rolo the viking who laid siege to Paris and was given what was to become Normandie as a settlement. He is the great grandfather of William the Conqueror who, as you know, invaded England and formed their royal dynasty. I am Swedish and my two business partners are French/US and British hence the name, my fathers name also happens to be Rolf/Rollo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeiOOkV64AM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The BB: We use a proprietary BB system that can accommodate all current cranks without adapters. We use special SKF bearings with a factory estimated life of over 30.000 hours when used as a BB bearing. The BB is solid and bonded in to the frame. You can swap between 25mm and 30mm axles in the same BB by changing out the bearings. You will however need to change out the BB tube to accomodate BB30/PF 30 cranks such as the Cannondale. This is done by the dealer.

Shifting systems: We will accommodate Electrical, Hydralic and Mechanical shifting (and braking).

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 Post subject: Re: ROLO sneak peek
Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:12 am 


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 Post subject: Re: ROLO sneak peek
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:52 pm 
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Perfection.

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 Post subject: Re: ROLO sneak peek
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:25 pm 
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Very impressive. :thumbup: Now that the 600g territory is broken for a average size frame, now onto breaking into the 500g territory for a average size frame in production model. :beerchug:


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 Post subject: Re: ROLO sneak peek
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:39 pm 
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andy2 wrote:
While most of the frame should be as stiff as possible to transmit as much of the energy to the ground as possible, we also have to ensure sufficient compliance at the seat tube, top tube and seat stays in order to provide a degree of comfort to the rider.
Does thsi approach provide comfort to the feet? Specifically, does it address the vibration and shocks transmitted through to the pedals, and ultimately the feet? Some people may be as or more sensitive to shocks and vibration to their feet as to their butt, especially over the course of a long ride.


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 Post subject: Re: ROLO sneak peek
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:30 pm 
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Hi HT,
First off, as you know, vibration mitigation is related to but not the same as compliance.
Lets forget about the fork and front wheel for now (very few light forks have good ride quality as well as high torsional stiffness).
We address vibration from the rear wheel firstly by using all carbon dropouts, secondly we have a fairly low BB and therefore longish (411mm)
seatstays, that increase the distance the vibrations need to travel, and thirdly in discontinuity in materials in the torsion box right behind behind the BB area. The asymmetrical shape of the chainstays also do their part to dampen out vibrations. Also if you get a chance to look up close, the area immediately around the BB is made from a tough twill (mainly to better take the forces in that area, but the twill helps to dampen the vibrations)

/a

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 Post subject: Re: ROLO sneak peek
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:53 pm 
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What kind of decals are going on the production frame?


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 Post subject: Re: ROLO sneak peek
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:51 pm 
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Very nice!!!

On the "too expensive" comments: hard to compete with Taiwanese assembly lines. It's good to appreciate nice stuff without getting bogged down on asking price. It's great to see a project like this produce such impressive results.

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 Post subject: Re: ROLO sneak peek
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:53 pm 
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djconnel wrote:
Very nice!!!

On the "too expensive" comments: hard to compete with Taiwanese assembly lines. It's good to appreciate nice stuff without getting bogged down on asking price. It's great to see a project like this produce such impressive results.


I'm not knocking down the tech, which is impressive, I'm commenting on the price and market perception and apprehension. I'm aware that there are people who would happily pay extra for a name, or certain tech. My price comment is related to other custom carbon from: Ax Lightness, Crumpton, Argonuat, Sarto, even Colnago custom C59, custom DeRosa, etc.. One can have an impressive list of features and because of price disparity somethings flop.

The Rolo couldn't exist without Carbon tech from Asia. I might be wrong but where does the carbon to make it come from?


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 Post subject: Re: ROLO sneak peek
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:18 am 
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At this stage of frame development and pushing R&D, marginal gains cost $$$ to push the boundaries. As with most things, price will fall over time for the raw materials and then some new $$$ material will be used. Rinse and repeat.


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 Post subject: Re: ROLO sneak peek
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:25 am 
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Rolo sub 900g for f+f ~$10,000 USD est
2014 Scott Addict SL sub 1000g for f+f $?

Could be looking at a good $5,500-$6,500 difference for 100g savings.

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 Post subject: Re: ROLO sneak peek
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:58 am 
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Location: Australia
Just wanted to pass on that it looks brilliant! Well done!!!

From over the pond in Aus, all the best!

I


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 Post subject: Re: ROLO sneak peek
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:42 am 
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meta: We do exist without 'Asian tech', this is not by any means because we made a conscious decision not to; it just so happens that our business partner Cytec source their own base materials. We use Cytec Thornel® Pitch and PAN-based fibers. We had no idea that this was such a big deal (in a positive way) until we started to get requests from Chinese distributors. :lol:

tranz: We differ in so many ways from the Scott (and the Addict is a fantastic achievement) that I won't even attempt to start to to get in to that here. Let me just point out that ours is a custom frame. Your point is rather like pointing out that the Parlee Z-zero is xxx grams heavier than an Addict and xxxxx more expensive. I say that as a proud Z1 owner and Parlee fan.

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 Post subject: Re: ROLO sneak peek
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:50 am 
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tranzformer wrote:
Rolo sub 900g for f+f ~$10,000 USD est
2014 Scott Addict SL sub 1000g for f+f $?

Could be looking at a good $5,500-$6,500 difference for 100g savings.


+1 Nice frame but it's the law of diminishing returns.

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 Post subject: Re: ROLO sneak peek
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:09 am 
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andy2 wrote:
tranz: We differ in so many ways from the Scott (and the Addict is a fantastic achievement) that I won't even attempt to start to to get in to that here. Let me just point out that ours is a custom frame. Your point is rather like pointing out that the Parlee Z-zero is xxx grams heavier than an Addict and xxxxx more expensive. I say that as a proud Z1 owner and Parlee fan.



Custom is overrated imo for someone who is young, decently fit and not at odds with neck or back pain. If you are older, out of shape/flexibility, have neck or back pain and/or are a dentist, then yes maybe a custom frame makes sense. But for the vast majority of people, even pros and amateur weekend warriors, a production frame will fit just fine with a good fit and/or experience on a bike and you know how you want your bike setup (stack and reach).

As this is WW, the numbers I provided still stand if this Rolo is trying to hit $10,000 mark for the frameset and sub 900g for frame and fork. The new Scott Addict will be sub 1000g for frame and fork and I would anticipate the cost being anywhere from $3,500 to $4,500.

While you can argue about custom geometry, handling, comfort, type of carbon used...etc. in the end in terms of weight and price, one would be paying ~$5,500 to $6,500 more for ~100 grams less weight. Strictly on a dollar per gram basis as a WW, this doesn't make the cut. Sure there might be many other reasons to buy a Rolo, but bang for buck in terms of WW it won't be. Looks like that honor will be going to Scott.

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 Post subject: Re: ROLO sneak peek
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:00 am 
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I agree that custom geometry is only of interest to a particular segment of riders, ours is a custom lay-up - a new concept.
I fully understand that you are a grams/$ kinda guy and that you really, really like the Scott, so no argument there. It makes perfect sense.
There are thousands upon thousands like you and Scott will sell thousands of bikes and continue to be a dominant force in the industry. That is all as it should be.

We are about something different.

My objective in starting this thread was to share with the WW community the fruits of one of our tech projects.
The discussion of business models, which is a perfectly valid and interesting conversation, might be better suited
to another thread or even forum where we could discuss the elasticity of demand for high performance cycling goods.
Actually, I would leave that to one of my business associates as I find these things hugely boring and stale.

/a

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Last edited by andy2 on Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ROLO sneak peek
Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:00 am 


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