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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:07 pm 
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mrfish wrote:
Tend to agree re. brand. And price is about right for the massed wallets of cityboys, consultants, lawyers and dentists. For those in that phase I'm sure it will be a hit.


Basically hollow audience.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:56 pm 
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bikewithnoname wrote:
Hmm, the frame actually seems quite competitively priced if you ask me, at GBP3950 is about 500 quid more than a C59, and 250 more than a Think 2 Dogma. So not ludicrous at all, and it’s sure as hell going to be lighter than both of those framesets...


The C59 is still made by a bloke in Ernesto's basement (seen the video?) that's at least part of the reason for it's cost. No-one ever buys a Colnago because it's light weight.
The Pinarello has been ridden to victory in Grand Tours, despite it's heavy weight.
Both of those bikes framesets are overpriced (as are many others...)

This Lightweight frame is just yet another made in the east frame..so what if it's quite light. It's massively overpriced for what it is. To say it's just a bit more than the above in cost so that's OK is ludicrous

(FWIW I think it actually looks really nice in those pics but I wouldn't pay that much for it)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:27 am 
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TimW wrote:
bikewithnoname wrote:
Hmm, the frame actually seems quite competitively priced if you ask me, at GBP3950 is about 500 quid more than a C59, and 250 more than a Think 2 Dogma. So not ludicrous at all, and it’s sure as hell going to be lighter than both of those framesets...


The C59 is still made by a bloke in Ernesto's basement (seen the video?) that's at least part of the reason for it's cost. No-one ever buys a Colnago because it's light weight.
The Pinarello has been ridden to victory in Grand Tours, despite it's heavy weight.
Both of those bikes framesets are overpriced (as are many others...)

This Lightweight frame is just yet another made in the east frame..so what if it's quite light. It's massively overpriced for what it is. To say it's just a bit more than the above in cost so that's OK is ludicrous

(FWIW I think it actually looks really nice in those pics but I wouldn't pay that much for it)


I just don't get what "where it is made" has to do with anything.

Do you find frames made in Europe attractive because they are rare? If that's the case I think Look makes some of its frames in Morocco. African made frames are even more rare.

I assume it isn't a quality thing - I don't think a debate about the quality of "far eastern" frames is even worth having.

Clearly the Dogma & C59 aren't overpriced, or they wouldn't sell. You may think they aren't good value for money. The problem with the "value for money" argument is that everyone would end up riding a 3rd-hand 2001 alloy Giant TCR with 105 or something. A good bike, excellent value for money, but not something people drool over.

For me, the Dogma is ugly. The C59 is ok but doesn't look special enough compared to other Colango. The Lightweight is attractive and unique. If I was spending that much on a frame I think it would be towards the top of my list.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:34 am 
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"I just don't get what "where it is made" has to do with anything.

Do you find frames made in Europe attractive because they are rare? If that's the case I think Look makes some of its frames in Morocco. African made frames are even more rare."

I agree that some of the best carbon fiber layup comes out of Asia. However for some people, where a product is made matters to them. Just like some people want a custom Bespoke suit made for them by a quality tailor rather than a mass produced suit from Indonesia or India. Just like some people want to buy their produce from a local farmers market rather than a big box grocery store. Another example is those that only want to buy domestic cars and not foreign made cars...etc.

For bikes, the story behind the frame matters. That emotional connection to an artisan frame builder who spent time building your bike because they love doing that job and has been in the family for several generations vs. an underpaid Asian working along on their hundredth frame for the day. For some that matters. For others it doesn't. I will say that for me, the origin of the frame has less to do with things and that qc, engineering, underlying design, technology and material use matter more than just being made in a particular country.

FYI, Look doesn't make their frames in Morocco. They have a factory in Tunisia and make great quality stuff out of that factory.



"Clearly the Dogma & C59 aren't overpriced, or they wouldn't sell. You may think they aren't good value for money."

Just because something does sell doesn't mean it isn't overpriced at the same time. In addition overpriced and not being good value for the money go hand in hand.

Quote:
Adjective
overpriced (comparative more overpriced, superlative most overpriced)
Priced higher than what it is really worth.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:55 pm 
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Just watched one being built up at local shop - must say I really like it. Down here the frameset cost is less than many others - Dogma, Cipollini etc. It has nice simple lines with very nicely resolved tube junctions - reminds me a lot of the resolved germanic styling of the BMC Pro Machine (the last carbon frame I bought) - purposeful straight lines but with sharp edges rounded off and no 'look at me' graphics. Definitely nicer looking in the flesh than the photos where it can look a bit plain.
Since getting a 1400g Baum Ti frame (also more expensive than this frame) I have come to appreciate ride quality over absolute weight so a frame in the sub 800g range is fine by me if it has a nice planted feeling on descents. etc. - a recent US reviewer of the Baum Corretto claimed his fastest time on his favourite descent attributable to its handling - I have to agree on the benefits of handling over pure weight - my 7kg Baum is definitely my go-to bike rather than my 5.5kg BMC. The LW frame is significantly lighter than some other flagship models like the Dogma (then again I think my Baum is too) - another story.
The frame I saw was being built up with DA di2 with LW bars (look very nice too) THM cranks and brakes and LW wheels - battery integration into the seatpost and cable routing were all very nicely resolved - although personally I am no fan of electronics and could easily visualise Campy SR.
My biggest grip would be the monolink seat system of the seatpost - it is a slightly ovalised post so really you are stuck with the frameset seatpost. I have tried the monolink previously and found it very harsh - and it doesn't take my preferred saddle. Hopefully some clamp adaptors for 'normal' rails will emerge.
It would make my top 2 list - alongside the BH Ultralight - if I was in the market for a carbon frameset (still happily enjoying my vintage steel phase) Has a lot more street cred for me than the Dogmas. Cipos and Cervelos that the doctors and bling merchants go for around here and is cheaper. Can't speak for performance but it definitely looks like a very well finished quality product.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:16 pm 
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dadoflam08 wrote:
My biggest grip would be the monolink seat system of the seatpost - it is a slightly ovalised post so really you are stuck with the frameset seatpost. I have tried the monolink previously and found it very harsh - and it doesn't take my preferred saddle. Hopefully some clamp adaptors for 'normal' rails will emerge.
On August 12 in this thread, CarbonSportsGmbH wrote:
HammerTime2 wrote:
[...]are you only able to use that monolink seatpost, and hence a monolink saddle, and hence it's goodbye to your favorite non-monolink saddle? On the other hand "The Urgestalt seatpost is an all-new design built around a Monolink saddle. Looks like the post binder bolt is hidden under the top tube, just in front of the seat tube.", so post binder bolt implies not an ISP, so maybe you can use a standard seatpost and hence saddle?

=> we'll offer a full set of spare parts with the frame, including both types of clamps - the one for monolink-saddles and the one for classic saddles. So no worries...you'll be able to ride on on your favourite saddle!

dadoflam08 wrote:
The frame I saw was being built up with DA di2 with LW bars (look very nice too)
It appears that LW bars are a new product? http://lightweight.info/us/en/components/rennbuegel
And bottle cage as well? http://lightweight.info/us/en/components/edelhelfer


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:24 pm 
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Thanks HT - been away for a while so didn't read the whle thread and see the note on the seatpost clamp - that is good to see.
I saw both the handlebars and bottlecages - there are some comments starting to appear RE these items on the web. The shop owner who also stocks Schmolke is very impressed with the bar stiffness compared to the Shmolke items - claimed weight is around 168g. The drop, reach and bend are also a bit more mainstream that the Scholke ones which may suit more people. Prices on the web for the bars are hight up there with Schmolke.
The finish is again very nice and will compliment the frame really well.
LW now just need to crack the holy grail for carbon - a stem that is superior to alloy

_________________
'83 De Rosa Professional
2011 Baum Corretto
2008 BMC Pro Machine - sub6
'86 Pinarello Team
'72 Cinelli SC NOS
'58 Bianchi (in bits)
'71 Cinelli SC Reborn
'78 Masi 'Breaking Away' Replica
Project 2016.1 - underway


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:04 am 
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HammerTime2 wrote:
It appears that LW bars are a new product? http://lightweight.info/us/en/components/rennbuegel
And bottle cage as well? http://lightweight.info/us/en/components/edelhelfer


Interesting to see them expanding their product line. I think the brand is strong, but going into new areas like this will be more of a challenge. It isn't like Schmolke and Ax and others haven't been working at this for a while.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:26 am 
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A minor gripe I suppose, but a frame this expensive should have a website with size-specific pictures.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Looking at this bike, I'm reminded of a quote having to do with "suckers" and "minutes". What a ludricrous waste of money. Add LW wheels, SR EPS and you have the ultimate Cat 5 podiatrist ride.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:49 am 
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hiro11 wrote:
Looking at this bike, I'm reminded of a quote having to do with "suckers" and "minutes". What a ludricrous waste of money. Add LW wheels, SR EPS and you have the ultimate Cat 5 podiatrist ride.



uh oh .....inverted snob alert.....

it's people that waste ludicrous amounts of money that subsidises the bikes and parts that you do buy.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:54 am 
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Wow - I admit I've been away awhile but not feelin the love for LW around here anymore :D

Well given it is no more expensive that half the other framesets on this site I'm not outraged by the price. Not an annual upgrade certainly.

My love for bikes is as much about the aesthetic,industrial design and emotional response as the pure ride quality so I'm not going to tell anyone it rides better than a Merida Sculptura or Focus but as a 'bike' for me I like it so far - just like I would never elect to own a Trek, Specialised, Dogma, Addict or Cipollini. Even the cheapest bike is a waste of money if it doesn't do it for you.

- of course the elephant in the room is how does it rides. Time will tell if the marketed ride is real.

The local build is now complete - 5.5kg on the knocker including cages but no pedals. Not being ridden until the offiocial launch at EB so no preview here.

As for LW wheels I must pipe up and say they certainly are unique to ride on, probably the only wheels I reckon I could distinguish on feel if I could manage to ride eyes closed without going off the road. As a 100kg rider also one of the few WW true performance options in its weight class for those clyde WW's out there who want to spend the money. Diminishing returns for the investment compared to some but the returns are definitely there - especially if you are bigger.

My personal riding choice for this frame would be Ksyrium SLRs - no decals of course - bit harsh but light-ish, would still look the part and do stop on a dime in the wet (or AUS 10c piece)

_________________
'83 De Rosa Professional
2011 Baum Corretto
2008 BMC Pro Machine - sub6
'86 Pinarello Team
'72 Cinelli SC NOS
'58 Bianchi (in bits)
'71 Cinelli SC Reborn
'78 Masi 'Breaking Away' Replica
Project 2016.1 - underway


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:23 pm 
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corky wrote:
uh oh .....inverted snob alert.....
Probably true. This is admittedly the wrong site to be anti-conspicuous consumption. Hey, if a $15K bike floats your boat, more power to you. There are many, many worse ways to waste money. I see stuff like this as essentially fetish property.

Quote:
it's people that waste ludicrous amounts of money that subsidises the bikes and parts that you do buy.
Ah yes, the saintly 80th Anniversary Campy buyers, valiantly taking the hit for the rest of us. :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:26 pm 
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Is podiatry the new dentistry?

I didnt realise there was so much money in corns.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:34 am 
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dadoflam08 wrote:
The local build is now complete - 5.5kg on the knocker including cages but no pedals. Not being ridden until the offiocial launch at EB so no preview here.


I rode past & took a look at the build (I assume it's the same one anyway - there can't be too many around - it's in the front window).

The thing I like about this frame compared to other options around the same price (Parlee etc) is the fact the tubes have some shaping. I'm not going to attempt to argue that makes it ride better, but I think aesthetically I prefer the look.


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