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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:32 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:19 pm
Posts: 349
There's a tiny brass washer in the ergo at the cable housing entry point that can pop out and get lost - this can cause a bit of extra friction that makes all the difference:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/01/ ... ace_102478" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Worth checking that it's there? If it's missing a temporary work around is to move the one from the alternative entry point over to the one you are using.

An incredibly obvious thing to check (I'm sure you've done this) is that the cable is in the right position underneath the bolt and washer on the RD - some of the campagnolo diagrams can be a little misleading and if the cable is (for example) on the wrong side of the bolt it changes the angle of the cable slightly and screws things up.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:50 pm 
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P.S. I think the fact that you can adjust it for one front ring and not the other is a red herring - I've had this when there has been a bit of friction in the cables somewhere. It's just because the friction is just enough to reduce the workable range of the indexing such that there is no leeway at all - the different angle of the chain on each chainring gives each ring a minutely different optimal indexing setting on the rear, and the friction means that you can't set the indexing to overlap both. To compensate for the friction (which reduces slickness of shifting down to smaller sprockets) you end up over adjusting the indexing in this direction, which eventually takes it outside the range at which you can shift slickly upwards to a larger sprocket.


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Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:50 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:12 am 
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I'd never got the indexing perfectly right on the RD with cables on the back (of the handlebar).
It is always a bit off somewhere, either you get it right on the upper, middle or lower cogs but never over the whole cassette.
I tried a lot of cables etc. even changing the leverage by modify the cable holder on the RD.
After changing it to the front it has never been an issue.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:29 pm 
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@Neeb raises a good point about the little washer. Also the precut end of the housing is what should go into the shifter.

There used to be threads on this issue from when 11 spd first came out. There were also threads about trying to get Campy 11 to work in frames with internal cable routing. Cervelo came up a lot, with some frames never made to work properly because of some internal friction problem.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:13 pm 
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the cable friction could be coming from the frame hole where your cable go thru from the bottom to the top, make sure the angle for the cable guide that leads the cable into the hole is in a flow, use your hand to pull the cable from the top see if you feel any friction.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:44 am 
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Sounds like too short cable loop to the rear derailleur to me. I've had that cause the exact problem with not just Campy but SRAM too - get it to work on one ring but never both, and acted a little like the cable stops weren't adjusted properly.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:34 am 
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@bikerjulio, the other frame with internal routing that presented quite a few problems right when 11v came out was the Wilier 101.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:21 pm 
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Location: UK/Industry
Bit of an update as I've had chance to do further investigation and testing today.

Carried out a friction test/return spring test on the rear shift today as prescribed by one of the UK campy service agents, passed this test with no problem whatsoever in both chain rings so I think it's safe to say cable friction is not the issue.

I decided to try an 11 speed d/a cassette, as a bit of a left field idea, which we have mounted on one of our demo wheels(mavic r-sys) just to see if it made a difference -It did! with the 9000 cassette the indexing was spot on with no lazy shifts or needing to over-shift. Digging further it seems there are subtle differences in the cog spacing from the campy 11s to the shimano 11s. My next step is to try to achieve a similar spacing using campy cogs, any suggestions for that?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:59 pm 
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You are obviously working very hard on this. Pretty hard to mess with Campy spacing since the biggest 6 sprockets are fixed in their two groups.

Is the original problem still there with the Campy wheel?

Perhaps you have discovered that Shimano cassettes shift better. Which will upset a lot of people. :shock:

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There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:17 pm 
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You couldn't have somehow ended up fitting a very early 11sp cassette, like from 2009...? I seem to remember there were teething troubles with the early ones and they had to redesign one of the spacers.

You said it was a Record rather than SR cassette - I guess any old stock would look the same if it had never been fitted, same black & red boxes...


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:19 pm 
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Location: UK/Industry
@ bikerjulio, indeed I am! Whilst it's not pressured, I want to have it resolved permanently and properly, I feel a bike of such order should run without fault :)

Ideally I'd like to have it sorted on full campy gear as it should all work together, but we may end up using either a supertype or a 9000 cassette. The problem persists on any campy cassette we try, have tried four cassettes(including ratio changes to be thorough), as well as three different wheels(zipp 404, rolf vigor, mavic kyserium).

As for the comment on shimano cassettes, I've always found them to shift very very well, but I do not wish to debate that subject here ;)

@neeb, pretty sure its recent, was ordered from an official UK agent earlier this year.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:20 am 
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I can relate to this because I've had the same issues. So much so that it can drive you crazy replacing parts trying to rule out what went wrong. That can be a costly proposition. The one thing that made shifting on my BH G4 smooth and always right on was when you reduce friction from the cables. I found that stock Campy cables didn't work as well as Gore Ride On cables. However, gore stopped making these. Also, Gore cables were prone to fraying; so the thing that made it slick was actually the thing that made it stick after a short amount of time.

I am now using Jagwire in conjunction with Buzzy's Honey grease. Very Nice. Another thing is to make the cable housing slightly longer. doing this reduces tight bends. Analogy: When climbing a switchback, taking an outside line, although longer , can get you through a turn faster. You're cables also want to get around bends with the least resistance. My cables actually criss cross over the head tube, then criss crosses again under the down tube.

Hope that helps!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:29 am 
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Given your efforts so far, especially after trying four different cassettes, then the next step is to continue changing one part at a time in order to ID and eliminate the problem. Seems like your next step (and least labor intensive) is to try another rear mech with the current shifter. If problem persists then seems like your last option is to try a different shifter. Keep us posted...EM3

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:27 pm 
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I'm going to throw out one last idea - faulty shifter assembly. And yes it can happen quite easily. It was a problem with my Ultrashift Centaurs, and the current 11-spd US shifters are the same internally.

The current US shifters work by allowing 2 tiny spring-loaded balls to pop in and out of detents on a detent disc. It's not hard for a little ball to go astray in the assembly process, and voila! uniball shifting. (not as good).

Here's the before and after pictures from my original 2010 thread:

Image

Image

here's the parts catlog - shows you where these parts fit - P48

http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/SPARES2013-PART_A-27-11-12.pdf

heres a video. Only a partial dissassembly of the rear of the shifter is needed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X0HuogGeuc

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:47 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:47 pm
Posts: 68
Location: UK/Industry
@ em3 thanks, that is now the stage I'm at -Tried a brand new chorus r/d today, yielded the exact same results :( Next step will be shifter change....

@ bikerjulio Great post, will look into this as a possibility. Those pics remind me of servicing fox forx!


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Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:47 pm 


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