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 Post subject: Re: Panaracer R'air?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:16 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:36 am
Posts: 256
WMW wrote:
rowdysluggins wrote:
Logical flaw "Post hoc ergo propter hoc". Just because they are not latex does not preclude them from having the advantages of latex.
Carbon frames have all of the advantages of aluminum frames.


You wouldn't say that if you knew anything about tubes.

Another profound and compelling argument.


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 Post subject: Re: Panaracer R'air?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:36 pm 
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in the industry
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Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:59 pm
Posts: 612
Location: Ruidoso, NM
You don't appear to have enough knowledge to have an argument. You are just making snide remarks.

Latex have essentially zero hysteresis which is why they don't contribute to rolling resistance. Butyl is at the opposite end of the spectrum. Butyl is also much more likely to puncture from snakebites, and somewhat more likely to puncture from sharp objects. Several times I've had goatheads and staples stuck way into my tires and so long as I removed the object quickly, it didn't cause a flat.

There hasn't been and never will be a butyl tube that "has all the advantages of latex". The material properties are very different.

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 Post subject: Re: Panaracer R'air?
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:36 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Panaracer R'air?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:18 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:20 pm
Posts: 1146
Location: New Zealand
Speaking of the Panaracers, I actually quite like the Greenlites they do

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 Post subject: Re: Panaracer R'air?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:05 pm 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5773
Location: Belgium
Hi,

Latex can be butylized so it achieves a compromise between low weight, low rolling resistance and low leakage.
This was achieved by a French engineer, Mr. Boule and was marketed for some years under the AIR-B name.
I still have some in my cellar but they're way heavier than a nice Vred anyways.
Unfortunately, as with most things too good for their own good, the company was bought by Michelin in the same way they bought up other too bright ideas and was subsequently frozen.

Panaracer, a Japanese subsidiary of Pana (fill in the dots), has done its own research and came up with a butyl/latex mixture IIRC, that has similar properties as the AIR-B inner tube. Keep in mind, however, that rolling resistance was not the main target in these days as little research had been done in that particular area.
What they were after was a low weight latex inner tube that held air longer than mere latex and that was that.

Japanese based Panaracer has other proprietary mixtures of butyl and other chemicals though that are little known abroad and excellent tyres to boot.

Ciao, ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Panaracer R'air?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:56 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:10 am
Posts: 1841
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Panaracer used to be THE mountain bike tires to have in the mid 90s. The smoke and dart tires were great!
Since then panaracer seems to have fallen off the planet. What happened? lack of development or lack of marketing and sales drive?

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 Post subject: Re: Panaracer R'air?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:32 am 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5773
Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
lack of development or lack of marketing and sales drive?


That plus too much competition from the likes of Vittoria (at least in Europe) perhaps ?
They're very much alive though (big in Japan but apparently nowhere else) with a nice catalogue:

Quote:
http://www.panaracer.com/road.php


Looking at their to of the line tub, the Extreme Jet, I can see why it's ignored by WWs merely browsing through catalogues though.
Little do they know as this tub is probably, in fact quite likely, one of the top five fasted tubs on the planet even though it's a tad on the heavy side.
Look at Deda Tre: fastest rolling tyres ever yet just a bit too heavy to appeal to the discerning (but often not so well informed) WW and where are they now?

Ciao, ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Panaracer R'air?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:22 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:36 am
Posts: 256
For me, when it comes to tubes, tires, and wheels, it is always a compromise between multiple factors: rolling resistance, weight, durability, cost etc.
I ride clinchers, and if ride quality was the only issue, I'd be riding tubulars.
I've ridden with latex tubes, and I love the ride, but I can not tolerate air loss that requires me to re-inflate before the end of a double century.
I have ridden many different brands and models of butyl including high end and low end < 50g versions.
I think the R'Air tubes are an amazing compromise with the ride reaching imperceptibly close to that of latex, and air holding capability imperceptibly close to that of butyl, and at the low end of the weight scale for either material. They cost more, but that is not the overriding factor (for me). I can get latex tubes as cheap, but I won't, I can get butyl much cheaper, but I won't.
I'd love to hear other recommendations for other tubes - latex or butyl, that have the properties I'm looking for, because the R'Air tubes (especially in the 60mm stem) are really hard to find (but I've found nothing better).


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