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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:59 pm 
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the new materials/composites will be interesting, but i am left wondering if they will have the same weaknesses as carbon fiber (easily damaged). i guess that was one reason that i was hoping that frame builders and manufacturers might start turning their eyes towards new alloys (and they admittedly have their weaknesses too).

like many, i love carbon, but it can be anxiety provoking to think about how paradoxically strong yet fragile it is as a material.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:34 pm 
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I wonder if advances in replicating materials found in nature might produce results. Spider silk, for example, which in certain forms is 5 times stronger than steel for its weight.


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Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:34 pm 


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:55 pm 
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Bianchi's new endurance bike has some rubber or something for comfort.
http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/04/05/bia ... more-57834" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are many materials to be experimented with.

1. There are polymers that are usually viscous but harden on impact.
2. Smart metals that change properties based on heat, magnetics, or electrical inputs.
They could be laid up in the CF so there are no joints or hinges, but the frame would still have suspension or desired flex.
Sensors in the frame would sense the road or rider input, and the frame would change its ride properties to react.
Or have an electrical switch to lockout the frame up hills and have suspension down hills.
Frames won't just be linear in their flexing, they will be programmed to react just like magnetic car suspensions do today.
3. Aerogel conducts heat but is very light, maybe it can transfer heat to a smart metal to make it change shape so there is no need for electronics.
4. There are conductive plastics that could eliminate cables since they would be molded into the frame.
Or just add strips of that graphene instead into the layup.
5. Atomic deposition or electroplating hard metal coatings to carbon so frames won't be so weak to impacts.
http://www.integran.com/services/plating-on-composites/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
6. Lay some thin copper in the rims and magnets in the frame and your wheels become dynamos to power up your gadgets.
Or just add flexible solar panels into the frame layup.
7. Or as some questionable Chinese do, add whatever is laying around.
Image


Last edited by ttakata73 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:25 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:58 pm 
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NYCPrynne wrote:
It seems like carbon technology is probably going to plateau soon, if it has not already done so, and that improvements are only going to be incremental. The evolution of frames will hopefully continue. IMHO, the biggest advances seem to be made whenever there are changes in the materials. Chro-moly to titanium & aluminum to carbon fiber.

I am wondering if anyone has thoughts about the next jump? I feel like it ought to probably be in the development or discovery of new metal alloys.....a metal that can be made to be light and that can be easily handled?

I am a big fan of carbon, but it seems like manufacturers are just producing variations of the same thing, and it is getting a bit old.

Thoughts?


Maybe the advances will come in ways that are tailored to the rider's ability. This is a bit far fetched, but suppose that a sprinter could ride some test frame with strain gauges attached in various places and do a variety of test sprints. Engineers could interpret the data to identify where the individual rider would benefit from a frame that stiffened up in specific places.

I don't know if there is enough variability between riders to make a difference. I get the impression that frame technology is reaching ever diminishing returns, but I'm more than happy to be proven wrong in the years to come.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:08 pm 
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Location: Shetland, Scotland
On the TT side:- 3d body scan, position and frame interaction optimised in CFD, rapid prototyped one off frame moulds, custom layoup design, frame arrives made to measure, aready fitted to your best position - now you just have to get used to it... ;) )


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:43 pm 
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DMF wrote:
In the not so near future for certain frames will be made out of graphene, will probably bring frame weights down to sub300g without even breaking a sweat... Ofcourse when that is, is anybody's guess, but certainly the 'wheels are in motion' (pardon the pun) rolling in that direction, not just for bicycles...


Graphene is a single layer of graphite. That wouldn't work.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:27 am 
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How about some textreme?
http://www.feltbicycles.com/blog/?p=2812


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:41 pm 
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"Carbon Frame" is already reinforced polymer LOL.
Tubes in Carbon Frame is a reinforced polymer with fibres of Carbon. The binding polymer is epoxy.
You also have Composites which is more general term, it's a doping of the polymer with other elements to change material properties of it.
Carbon is abundant element in nature and makes many things because of the way it can form compounds with other elements. Because of it's harmonic chemical structure. Everything from water to life is made of Carbon.

CF is here to stay. You can create whatever you wish out of it. We will probably continue to see products becoming more useful and prices coming down. There are other materials to explore in the Periodic Table. But a solution is only viable and reasonable to explore if its fundamentally useful and reasonably cheap to make.
Aluminum is interesting one because it's an enigma material, always flirting with what can be done with it. Remaining cheap, easy to make and useful.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:48 pm 
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Maybe some of you have a point about composites. Shimano is releasing a composite version of the 5700 SPD-SL pedals later this year/next year at <$100. It's not particularly light, but it will be interesting to see how it holds up compared to the "old" metal 5700/6700/7810s and the carbon 6700/7900/9000s.

Who knows... that could extend to frames if the material handles stresses well.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:03 pm 
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Horze wrote:
Everything from water to life is made of Carbon.


Water is made from Hydrogen and Oxygen bro.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:04 pm 
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Say which composite.

"Carbon" is more composite than most realise. "Carbon" isn't the pure material it is made out to be.
Analogy is like aluminum to alloy of aluminum.

Shimano pedal is probably just made cheaply. It not a decider on carbon or composites.
They will probably use refined process, cheaper bearings etc. Ways to cull the costs..


Zakalwe wrote:
Water is made from Hydrogen and Oxygen bro.


Water is H20 chemically. But you still find Carbon in the water due to is natural cycle in the environment.
Organic compounds aren't purely Carbon either.
I could phrase that better.

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Last edited by Horze on Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:07 pm 
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I mean, the biggest advance (in the short to mid term) will be in the resin for the most part. Then you can get into more complex carbon molecule geometry.

Still gonna be carbon though


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:50 pm 
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Horze wrote:
Zakalwe wrote:
Water is made from Hydrogen and Oxygen bro.


Water is H20 chemically. But you still find Carbon in the water due to is natural cycle in the environment.


You find fish in water too, but that doesn't mean water is made of fish.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:51 pm 
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Horze wrote:
Say which composite.

Shimano pedal is probably just made cheaply. It not a decider on carbon or composites.
They will probably use refined process, cheaper bearings etc. Ways to cull the costs..


I'm not sure how I'm supposed to know the specific material Shimano uses for an as-yet unreleased proprietary pedal system... just trying to add to the discussion.

Perhaps, someday, buyers will have their choice of low-end starter bikes in either Al or a cheap, sturdy (heavy) composite.


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Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:51 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:17 pm 
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Materials technology will advance but a bicycle is such a simple thing that I am not sure what else can be delivered to the consumer that is a significant performance improvement.

Lighter? Sure but will pulling another 300 grams of the current lightest set up give the rider anything? We all crap bigger than that!

Stiffer? Perhaps, but that won't make it better.

Faster as in Aero and lower friction? Maybe a bit but not significant.

Durability - impact resistance. That's an interesting one - would be nice.

I think the industry is bumping its head on a tech ceiling. Many very good frames haven't changed in a few years. My Giant TCR Advanced SL has been essentially the same bike for 5 - 6 years, others are in the same boat. I see the only real gain for the cyclist in the decline in price for the good stuff. But that will depend as much on the market as technology.

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