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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:59 pm 
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Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Hey guys- this looks really cool! Anyone with more composites knowledge than me care to elaborate a little on the relative benefits of this process in this application?

Thanks!

http://www.bikerumor.com/2015/03/04/vel ... struction/


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:33 am 
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interesting tech to lower the price of carbon rims. the asian are pushing manufacturing tech to bring carbon to the masses..

while in the us enve/zipp are unable to lower there costs. i predict in ~5years us made rims will be phased out.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:39 am 
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I posted a reply on that article, my name is CW there. A guy in the UK "bicycle manufacturing" posted a photo of the same rims and in a few words, said it was an experiment they tried but they found out it was a shit application for filament wound carbon. I'm sure we'll see soon!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:18 am 
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Bicycle Manufacturing (Mike) has some serious experience and I would take his thoughts under consideration. He has done a lot of work in auto racing and been around carbon for a while.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:35 pm 
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I'm negotiating some samples with different spoke configurations to build up and test with a view to designing our own rim profiles for the future.

I am assuming they are just about everything Victor Major says they are as he does know his stuff where carbon is concerned.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:42 am 
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I just saw this thread, so I thought I'd chip in.

The new filament wound rims were a hit at the Taipei Cycle Show so hopefully many people will get some experience with them soon. Soon (not sure how soon) we may also offer samples of rims and wheels for sale to general public in order to increase the end user experience base so keep an eye on this very new, and still mostly sparse website for more information http://www.venn-cycling.com

Regarding filament winding being a "shit application" for making rims. Well, no it is not :-) except that it is very hard to do at present. In the future filament wound rims will likely come to dominate the market. Filament winding has no theoretical disadvantages compared to the manual layup method, and even the 1st generation filament wound rims that we just released already offer practical benefits.

V.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:06 pm 
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This does seem like pretty cool technology. Could you elaborate on some of the practical benefits you speak of (besides manufacturing) with hard data?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:26 pm 
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Ostensibly higher compactions (no voids), no seams to stagger, and more optimal resin-to-matrix ratios. This has the makings of a stronger wheel (and more consistent given the automation). Lower losses in the manufacturing (once the tooling is amortized) might mean lower cost to the end-user.

Which means a stronger rim at the same weight OR less weight for a similar strength wheel. Both of which are nice.

VMajor--I know this goes against the common thread of carbon-everything, but please make one of those filament-wound rims with an alloy brake track (clincher). For us practical aero-weenies. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:15 pm 
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Derf wrote:
VMajor--I know this goes against the common thread of carbon-everything, but please make one of those filament-wound rims with an alloy brake track (clincher). For us practical aero-weenies. :)


If you want your cake and eat it too get a disc setup. The added weight isn't at the rim. Braking performance using hydro disc (specifically Shimano) will be better than any other carbon clincher design, alloy brake track or not. You won't wear out the brake track of an expensive rim.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:47 pm 
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Re wear of carbon rims, I'm curious how many have actually worn out a carbon rim at the brake track from normal wear and tear. Not from poor construction, delaminating or heat issues, just from normal wear? I think aluminum is much softer and in the cruddy winter if you ride a lot you can certainly chew through some rims. I've yet to see a carbon rim that has just been worn away at the brake track. Others experience?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:36 pm 
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Calnago, I've heard of a few people wearing out carbon brake tracks but their mileages are around 30-35000 km. One instance was an Easton EC90, can't remember the other.

I agree with the above comments regarding production and void content. But where are these rims produced? If the production IP falls into Chinese hands, they will pop all over AliExpress.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:08 pm 
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Eric, I'll pass on arguing the pro/cons of rim vs. disc braking. For the foreseeable future, my fleet of bikes is going to be rim brake'd, and I imagine so are many others.

efeballi--IP is one thing, then you get into the looms needed to weave things together and the process development there. It's a mature technology in many ways, but being moved to new application spaces. Perhaps that's what you meant?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:19 pm 
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No, I mean the technology being replicated/reverse engineered and sold for cheaper prices.

But if you say the tooling is too expensive, then I might be wrong.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:55 pm 
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The practical benefits that we already realized with this first generation process are lower manufacturing cost, higher manufacturing speed, effectively zero waste compared to any process using prepreg fabric (excludes towpreg), and less variation from rim to rim. Theoretical advantages are as already mentioned, but the theory is also exciting since filament winding happens to be the best way to utilize fiber reinforcement as the fibers are laid up under constant tension (ie. they are straight and mostly immobilized in the straight orientation) and they are not crimped which is what happens with weaving (cloth) or braiding (RTM process)....and yes, winding is not weaving or braiding.

You can see some stiffness batch variance data here (image misplaced at the moment under the CTL heading): http://www.venn-cycling.com/?_ptc=1#technology
The comparison base is not a random Chinese rim, but rims made using the manual layup process for a highly respected major brand.

As for the alloy rim braking surface, it is possible but it will depend on demand.

The technology will definitively be cracked by other manufacturers over time. The basic sentiment from our friends in the composite rim manufacturing field was "retire, or figure it out". The only area where the filament wound rims will not dominate in the future is with the more unique shaped rims such as those with spoke anchor cutouts on sidewalls, or some of the new MTB rims with decorative external surfaces (ridges and the like). For filament winding to work the filament has to be under constant tension, so it is not possible to wind troughs or bumps.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:41 pm 
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Hi, Victor, is it possible to make variable thickness (e.g. thicker nipple bed, thinner sidewall) by filament winding? Or is it a proprietary process so you're not able to elaborate?


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