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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:30 pm 
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Location: New Zealand
I've found my new CX group set for sure!

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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:30 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:06 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:31 am
Posts: 140
eric wrote:
......

I d not say that using hydraulics makes a brake impervious to fade.

Here's a good article on bike disc brake fade and road bike disc brake design: http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/02/14/roa ... they-work/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


That article was garbage. Poor component selction (discs were too light duty) and suspect bleeding were the cause.

Back to the OP.

Looking getup more detail re the disc brake version !!!!


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:05 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Posts: 1733
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
I agree that guy used rotors that were too light. But it's the comments from brake manufacturers in that article that I was pointing out. For example:

Magura: Fade on disc brakes is caused either by glazing pads (the friction coefficient is decreasing, requiring much more hand force to achieve the same brake force) and/or by overheating/boiling of hydraulic fluid, no mater if DOT or mineral oil, leading to spongy feeling and even to the possibility of a full loss of brake power, because the brake lever is touching the bar without pressure point.


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:02 am 
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Posts: 140
eric wrote:
I agree that guy used rotors that were too light. But it's the comments from brake manufacturers in that article that I was pointing out. ....


Take your point, but also some of the "manufacturer comment" was also very generic and really meaningless unless it was backed up by tests and data.


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:39 am 
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Butcher wrote:
Cable systems are a thing of the past. In 20 years, the only cable systems are going to be the cheaper groupsets. There is no reason to invest money/time in a system that is very slowly going out.

Ride DA 9000. Cable can still be very good.

And I say that as an ardent Campag man.


Have I also missed the mention of SRAM 11 working on their current freebody?

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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:40 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:57 pm
Posts: 765
Location: Ireland
Brake fade on hydrilic systems is a serious real world issue, ask anyone whos raced a car or motorbike in anger. Heat sink is the main issue, once the liquid boils the brakes are going to deminish in stopping power big time, not somthing anyone would want on a long descent.


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:22 pm
Posts: 764
Location: Brooklyn
Well we are not riding cars but lightweight bike. On my DH bike with Formula TheOne brakes I have never had any brake fade its the whole system is almost XC bike light. Even on super long descents in Whistler I have never had any problems. Maybe a little on my previous old Hayes brakes but then we are also talking about a system design more than 10 years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:56 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:29 pm
Posts: 236
eric wrote:
BmanX wrote:
I want to know if their 11 speed cassette will work on my current wheels. That is all that I need to know.


There's about a 99% chance that it's Shimano 11sp compatible. Using their own spec would be suicide.

So if your hubs have an 11sp freehub body available, the answer would be yes.


I bet they use their current XX1 11sp freehub. If they're using their ExactActuation thing, that means they have to ad an eleventh sprocket at the exact same spacing. That means they can't make the other ten closer together like Shimano did, which means no Shimano 11sp freehub. Say hello to road standard number three. D:

Also seriously Sram? How many upgrades can you pump out so damn fast! Force and Red just got SIGNIFICANT upgrades in the last 18 months, give us some time to at least break this shit in before luring us in with promises of more gears, Force yaw, and hydraulics!

My money's also on Red Black finally being phased out. With Force as it is, Black simply serves no purpose. I'm betting the new lineup is:

Hydraulic Red 22
Mechanical Red
Force 22
Force
Rival
Apex


Last edited by sigismond0 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:18 pm 
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Posts: 76
No need to quote post above

Force basically got some hand me downs from the old Red, I wouldn't call that a significant upgrade.
It would be crazy if SRAM couldn't pull 11 speed with the same spacing as Shimano did with theirs, that would indeed suck.

Anybody thinks having Force with 11 speeds will make Shimano move faster with their Ultegra 11?


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:30 pm 
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Posts: 236
The Force upgrade got a few trickle downs from Red Black, but those trickle downs were pretty much the only differences between the two groupsets! All they need to do is give the OG1090 cassette to Force and they're completely identical except for a few grams (and Force having a better front derailleur).

The way Sram systems work is that for every millimeter of cable travel at the shifter, there is exactly that much derailleur travel--they call this ExactActuation, and it serves to make set-up and maintenance pretty great. If they continue to do that (which they most certainly will, that's one of their main technologies), they have to find room for a full sprocket and spacer to keep everything even. The 11sp Shimano freehub is only about a half-sprocket/spacer wider, due to the fact that the other ten sprockets are spaced a little more tightly. I'd be surprised if Sram can fit their new cassettes onto that, and if they can't...well, they already have an 11s freehub for DoubleTap shifting systems.

Ultegra's absolutely due for an upgrade sometime soon, so I'm sure Ultegra 11 is on it's way in the next year or two.


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:34 pm 
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Posts: 216
Location: Chicago
They can reduce the cable travel in the shifter and in turn the RD and still call it ExactActuation. Doesn't have to be the same as the current 10sp travel distance.


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:50 pm 
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Posts: 236
It's possible, sure. But what's their incentive to use Shimano's 11s freehub design?
-People who already own 11s Shimano wheels don't have th change the freehub

And their incentives to use XX1?
-Don't have to change their shifter design
-Royalty money

So, the question is which will be greater: Money lost from people who refuse to buy because of a new freehub OR R&D savings on the shifters (significant dollars there) plus royalties from the XX1 freehub.

(I guess this is assuming that they get freehub royalties, don't know that for sure.) I also think that switching to XX1 freehub usually doesn't require re-dishing the wheel, but am not 100%.

Really, I can see it going either way.


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:58 pm 
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Location: San Francisco, CA
It's a barrier to entry for people switching from Shimano and for shops supporting both systems.

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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:10 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 pm
Posts: 7412
Location: Los Angeles / Glendale, California
sigismond0 wrote:
It's possible, sure. But what's their incentive to use Shimano's 11s freehub design?


Industry standard, basically.
Shimano is by far and away the largest, most powerful component company out there. It's not even close between 1 and 2 (SRAM). Campagnolo is in 3rd (there's a thread on this somewhere in CycleChat with the actual numbers).

That said, it's smartest to have compatibility with the most prevalent freehub out there or the one that will be out there: the 11spd Shimano freehub.

As someone stated earlier, it can still be ExactActuation (1:1), just that the amount of actuation is smaller compared to the 10spd rendition. No big deal, but more incentive for SRAM because then the 22 system is not necessarily backwards compatible for the rear derailleur to shifter connection... and even if the front derailleur would technically still be backwards compatible with older shifters, most people would want matching shifters, hence the incentive to get the full 22 package.

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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:31 pm 
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Posts: 186
I'm all of a sudden glad I did not upgrade my force yet :) - See when more details come and then see if I would rather pick up a 10 speed red or new 11 speed

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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:31 pm 
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