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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:31 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:51 pm
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http://www.newsbikes.com/article-sram-red-22-presentation-116919708.html

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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:31 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:00 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:36 pm
Posts: 228
Location: The Netherlands
I finally found some (miniscule..) pictures of Red 22:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:j0GUEOghzGsJ:www.fiets.nl/2013/04/11/sram-introduceert-11-speed/+&cd=1&hl=nl&ct=clnk&gl=nl

:mrgreen:



EDIT: Does anyone know how to abstract pictures from an in cache webpage?


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:54 pm 
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Here we go, you're welcome!

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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:35 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:39 pm
Posts: 364
Location: DC
this looks nice. would love to see hydraulic shifting soon!

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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:29 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:29 pm
Posts: 236
plpete wrote:
this looks nice. would love to see hydraulic shifting soon!


Why even bother? Hydraulic braking is there to solve the problem of not stopping and then crashing and burning to death. There's nothing wrong with shifting that hydraulic would fix, except maybe ever-so-minor cable routing; however, it would also add all the headaches of hydraulic lines and fluid.

Mechanical and electronic are all the shifting types we need.


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:34 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:44 am
Posts: 1255
ant+ shifting is what we need


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:34 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:35 am
Posts: 425
Hmm, the mechanical brakes, derailleurs and shifters don't look appreciably different from the current versions, nor do the cranks. This leaves me hopeful that it will be possible to convert 2013 Red to 11-speed. Of course, it is difficult to discern any minor differences, such as chainring width, from these photos.


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:42 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:29 pm
Posts: 236
topflightpro wrote:
Hmm, the mechanical brakes, derailleurs and shifters don't look appreciably different from the current versions, nor do the cranks. This leaves me hopeful that it will be possible to convert 2013 Red to 11-speed. Of course, it is difficult to discern any minor differences, such as chainring width, from these photos.


You'll have to replace the rear shifter to get the tenth click, which means you'll have to replace the rear brake to work with the hydraulic lever, and (probably) the rear derailleur. Now your shifters are rather blatantly different so you'll want to use the new front shifter which will require a new hydraulic brake, but you can keep your FD. Your crankset is good too.

So if you want to go 11s:
Replace rear shifter
Replace rear derailleur (probably)
Replace rear hub (if you don't have an 11s hub)
Replace rear cassette
Replace rear brake

And if you don't want your bike to look like a lopsided minotaur:
Replace front shifter
Replace front brake

You can keep the following:
Crankset/BB
Front Derailleur


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:49 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:10 pm
Posts: 253
looking at the pics, there's a mechanical version of the brakes/shifters.

so, replace Shifters, cassette 100%

Almost certainly: Wheels, chain.

50/50 IMO: Rear derailleur.


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:52 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:29 pm
Posts: 236
Whoops, didn't notice the mechanical shifter. You've got it right then. Actually it looks like the mechanical shifter is designed to match the 2012 shifters, so you'll only need to replace one lever.


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:59 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Posts: 1631
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
That'd be cool. Even better would be selling the 11sp ratchet cam.

Hydraulic shifting has the potential of being lighter than cables. And it won't wear out as fast (eventually the seals would wear though). I am pretty sure that the Acros system is lighter than cables.

I'm not sure it would be worth the setup hassle.


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:29 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:29 pm
Posts: 236
Well when you start to use lightweight housing and Powercordz, that hydraulic line's got to be awfully light. Don't forget that the shifters and derailleurs would also have to be larger and heavier to hold the pistons.


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:29 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Posts: 1631
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
The hydro line can be thin plastic tubing. I have seen that used for motorcycle hydraulic clutches. M/C and slave cylinder pistons can be made from aluminium.
Magura is making brake M/C bodies from carbon fibre.

The Acros shifter and derailleurs are pretty light:
http://www.acros.de/PRODUCTS/SHIFTING-S ... 029d1509b4


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:29 pm
Posts: 236
Yes, it can be thin plastic tubing but it has to be rather strong tubing that will not deform under pressure. The cylinders can be light CNC'd alu, sure, but that's a whole lot more extra alu than is in a mechanical lever and derailleur. Don't forget that you have to add in the weight of the mineral oil in the housing as well as the piston. I know it's not super heavy, but it adds up.

Hydraulic derailleurs have the potential to shave a few grams over traditional housing and cable, but I'd be incredibly surprised if a full hydraulic derailleur system is lighter than the same gruppo with mechanical derailleurs/Powercordz inside iLinks.

And again, don't forget the hassle of setting up hydraulics, which might be even more headache-inducing on derailleurs. Plus the maintenance of bleeding the system once a year, replacing the seals every 2-3, etc. Traditional cable have stretch, but once they're bedded in, you're good for years of maintenance-free riding. And you can't puncture a cable in a fall like you can with hydro tubes.

Out of curiosity, how much lighter do you think a full hydro system would be over hydro brakes+mech shifters? And I mean Sram vs Sram, not Sram vs flimsy boutique derailleurs.


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:59 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 pm
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Location: Los Angeles / Glendale, California
:roll:

Sigismond - have you researched the Acros system? Genuinely?

And before we begin, let's think about context here:
You are on WEIGHT WEENIES. You are on a forum where people think of iLinks, Powercordz and the lot as "standard" practice items. Guess what? That's not the majority of any market. It's so ridiculously niche it's not even funny. So let's think about everyone else - because guess what, that's what any realistic company would do. What would a normal rider want? Lighter group compared to their standard group.... and guess what, a hydraulic drivetrain will be lighter compared to a normal drivetrain, even with your calculations. But, let's go over them....


sigismond0 wrote:
Yes, it can be thin plastic tubing but it has to be rather strong tubing that will not deform under pressure. The cylinders can be light CNC'd alu, sure, but that's a whole lot more extra alu than is in a mechanical lever and derailleur. Don't forget that you have to add in the weight of the mineral oil in the housing as well as the piston. I know it's not super heavy, but it adds up.


Mineral oil adding up to significance? You're kidding, right? The mineral oil in a full system is still lighter than the weight of steel cables. The tubes are lighter than the common housing. That's two areas of being lighter.
You're also forgetting that with hydraulic there are less moving parts. Take a look at the ACROS derailleurs sometime. Notice that there's only one spring in the rear derailleur (a normal derailleur has two) ? Notice that the front derailleur doesn't have a spring either? Less parts, less things to fail.

sigismond0 wrote:
Hydraulic derailleurs have the potential to shave a few grams over traditional housing and cable, but I'd be incredibly surprised if a full hydraulic derailleur system is lighter than the same gruppo with mechanical derailleurs/Powercordz inside iLinks.


Context and reality, as described above. Try to think outside of your niche sometime, yeah?

sigismond0 wrote:
And again, don't forget the hassle of setting up hydraulics, which might be even more headache-inducing on derailleurs. Plus the maintenance of bleeding the system once a year, replacing the seals every 2-3, etc. Traditional cable have stretch, but once they're bedded in, you're good for years of maintenance-free riding.


Hassle? You've never set one up then? It's really easy. Heck, you can do it at home in a few minutes... There's YOUTUBE videos on how easy it is.
Also: paradox much? Cable stretch and maintenance free in the same sentence? On metal cables? Do you not ride your bike?

sigismond0 wrote:
And you can't puncture a cable in a fall like you can with hydro tubes.


I have yet to hear of anyone puncturing a hydraulic line, ever, even in the nastiest of trail conditions. Even if that did happen (again, show me a case) your derailleurs won't have the springs that would force the chain in a direction. There is only one spring to tension the chain, that's it. So if you do puncture, just set your derailleur manually and you can still make it home without being forced into a gearing that won't work for your terrain. A little bit of a hassle to change gears that way, but *f##k* me I don't see that as a possibility with an electronic failure or a mechanical-cable failure.

sigismond0 wrote:
Out of curiosity, how much lighter do you think a full hydro system would be over hydro brakes+mech shifters? And I mean Sram vs Sram, not Sram vs flimsy boutique derailleurs.


Wait... you're saying the Acros derailleurs are flimsy?
Wow. :lol:

Do a bit of research on them.

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Last edited by prendrefeu on Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: SRAM 11 Speed?
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:59 pm 
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