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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:20 pm 
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I am dead serious. I have probably owned more bikes than most here, I am in the industry and hence has some access to a bit of inside knowledge. I have discussed this with various designers and engineers. As un-scientific as it might seem, this "test" most often reflects very well the stiffness tests made by various magazines and of course manufacturers. Of course, you can't feel if a given frame has 70 or 75 nm/deg. "headtube" stiffness, but it's certainly a good measure of if a frame is stiff or not. If you think about it, it makes sense. What you are doing is essential what the lab tests are doing, namely trying to flex the front in relation to the rear. You have to yank hard, though. If this triggers a shimmy, you might either have other problems or the frames is very, very flexible. I have had two frames that flexible, personally.

As I said, it sounds like your frame has a problem.


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Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:20 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:15 am 
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Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
spud wrote:
I suspect your test is much more a reflection of a combination of trail/geometry, system/tire damping, spring rate/fork flexion and mass (handlebar, stem, shifters) working in a dynamic setting. While head tube stiffness has some bearing on the test, it reflects much more on the interaction of these other variables.


This bears repeating, as it is 100% correct and well written too.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:15 pm 
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Mario Jr. wrote:
I am dead serious. I have probably owned more bikes than most here, I am in the industry and hence has some access to a bit of inside knowledge. I have discussed this with various designers and engineers. As un-scientific as it might seem, this "test" most often reflects very well the stiffness tests made by various magazines and of course manufacturers. Of course, you can't feel if a given frame has 70 or 75 nm/deg. "headtube" stiffness, but it's certainly a good measure of if a frame is stiff or not. If you think about it, it makes sense. What you are doing is essential what the lab tests are doing, namely trying to flex the front in relation to the rear. You have to yank hard, though. If this triggers a shimmy, you might either have other problems or the frames is very, very flexible. I have had two frames that flexible, personally.

As I said, it sounds like your frame has a problem.


Hi, thank You for Your comment. I do have the same experiences and opinion.
Unfortunatelly my cervelo dealer is 250km from my house, so I still did not have a chance to test another R5 :cry:
Meanwhile, I rode the Dogma again today, and I also rode a Lapiere Xelius 900.
Both bikes has significantly "stiffer" front end. Again, the Dogma rails like a tank, this is what I expected from upgrading from my old R3 (2007) to a R5 VWD.
The R5 of mine really feels like a noodle in a direct comparisson with the Dogma :shock:

The reason why I am writting is to ask how to prove to Cervelo, that there is something wrong?
How are they going to investigate it? Maybe after months of waiting they tell me, sorry, the frame is OK and all of my season will be lost :x
And maybe the frame is really OK and Dogma is just so much better in front end stiffness....just because of the added 500 grams :noidea:

Thank You for advices.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:44 pm 
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I guess I am missing something. You like the ride of the Dogma, then I think you should ride a Dogma. I happen to prefer the ride of my Cervelo and that is what I ride. I have ridden a Dogma and did not really care for the ride. No one should try to convince you that you should like the ride of a Cervelo. They are different bikes and handle differently, there is nothing wrong with you or your bike. If you go around and claim that your bike rides like a noodle then some people will suggest that maybe there is a problem with your bike. There is no problem with your bike, it is simply that you do not like the ride.

This whole shimmy “noodle” test is ridiculous, the bikes have different geometry and you prefer one over the other. Not everyone prefers the Cervelo handling, not everyone likes the shape of my favorite handlebar and my favorite saddle would be very uncomfortable for some people.


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 Post subject: Is Cervelo R5 a noodle?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:56 pm 
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You should be working with the bike shop that you bought the bike with. They will talk to cervelo and if something is wrong the bike shop will work it out with cervelo if it is the bike. If you just don't like the ride, sell the bike and get the dogma.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:50 am 
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Permon wrote:
Mario Jr. wrote:

The reason why I am writting is to ask how to prove to Cervelo, that there is something wrong?
How are they going to investigate it? Maybe after months of waiting they tell me, sorry, the frame is OK and all of my season will be lost :x
And maybe the frame is really OK and Dogma is just so much better in front end stiffness....just because of the added 500 grams :noidea:

Thank You for advices.



Our reliable friends at Ride Cycling Review would disagree with your assessment. According to their test jig (a bit more scientific then the jiggle test) the Cervelo R5 (2011 56cm, Issue #52) yields a stiffer BB, Head tube and Seat Tube then a Pinarello Dogma (2010 53cm; Issue #47). Granted these are different model years then the frames in question in your post, but the design elements have not changed much in the later model years. Also, had similar frame sizes been tested, an even greater spread on all the numbers would be likely.

I think the wider point, not to beat this dead horse any more, is that empirically it is hard to claim that the the Dogma is stiffer then the R5. This means that there is either something significantly wrong with your frame or with your setup.

Good luck, EM3

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:01 am 
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Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
Or his testing method is a poor test of stiffness.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:17 pm 
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Location: Netherlands
Its al about the feeling of the bike.
If it feels like a noodle, It is a noodle....
You better try another R5 and do the same test. (you can also do the test with the same wheels that are in you dogma, wheels also make a difference.)

good luck.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:32 pm 
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"Yankee doodle dandy, put a feather in your cap and call it macaroni...."

The issue is whether the frame is flexible. That's not been demonstrated. What's been demonstrated is there's some harmonic oscillation in the bike + rider system. He can call that a noodle if he wants. That doesn't make it one.

This entire 5-page thread is a waste, because people aren't reading what's been written here.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:36 pm 
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djconnel wrote:
"Yankee doodle dandy, put a feather in your cap and call it macaroni...."

The issue is whether the frame is flexible. That's not been demonstrated. What's been demonstrated is there's some harmonic oscillation in the bike + rider system. He can call that a noodle if he wants. That doesn't make it one.

This entire 5-page thread is a waste, because people aren't reading what's been written here.


Whatever You say.... I have been riding race bikes for more than 26 years, I had at least 12 road bikes... So, please, if I feel the R5 of mine feels like a noodle, it is based on some experience.
Simple as it is.
As I explained twice, the "dumb test" was shot to show what I talk about, not as an evidence of noodling.

Today I rode an SL4, again feels much stiffer....even some say R5 is stiffer at the front end than SL4s....

At the very begining I asked if anybody else rode R5 and Dogma to give me a feedback. Nobody like that in here :noidea: Strange, nobody ridden those 2 bikes, but everybody is an expert :|

OK, lets stop this thread. :beerchug:
I am going to warranty the frameset.

Bye


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:46 pm 
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Location: Natovi Landing
That last post read so like one of artray's I had to check the "joined" date.

I haven't ridden them either permon - apologies.

Joking aside, it's very hard to believe that such a mainstream flagship frameset from one of the big boys is so noodly. It would be widely remarked on by testers and people who ridden dozens of these things back to back over the years.

Would be odd if Cervelo strangely forgot what they knew in designing this? Not impossible, but unlikely.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:31 pm 
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Could it be that your perception of "noodling" is really the opposite? Maybe the lack of stiffness in the front end of the Dogma or SL4 is a dampening effect and you are perceiving that as stiffness? In other words if you hold one end of a piece of cooked spaghetti and shake you hand a little the far end of the spaghetti moves very little. If you then shake an uncooked piece of spaghetti the far end of the spaghetti moves quite a lot.

Hope you find the ride you like.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:45 pm 
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Totally surprised Damon Rinard has not participated. Although with Cervelo now he has also done a lot of work on frame stiffness and perception.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:46 pm 
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Damn, there seems to be a lot of couch experts here. I suspect many hasn't had bikes enough to know shit from Chanel. Trust me. You can get very good impression of the front end stiffness with that test. This is confirmed by a number of designers and engineers from the bike companies I have been dealing with, as it basically replicates what is happening in a bench test. Of course play in the headset and wheels can influence, but as the OP has ruled that out, it should be a non-issue.
I am 99% sure there is a problem with your frame. No modern top frame should be able to flex like on your video. I have had more than 40 bikes since 1997 and only two has been that flexy. The newest being a 1st. generation Giant TCR Composite. Frame design has come a long way since that.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:04 am 
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I nominate this thread for the biggest waste of time on this forum. We are no longer discussing the technical issue, just who is smart and who is dumb.....and even that is up for argument! And I don't believe the wheel and headset have been eliminated..........and usually the simplest answer is the right answer. How likely is it that there's a mystery carbon layup issue on this bike, vs a loose headset or a bad front wheel or a dopey test. In any case.................... :noidea:


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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:04 am 


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