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 Post subject: Gokiso hubs from Japan
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:32 pm 
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I was reading the Velocite bikes blog today and noticed that Victor is going to be experimenting with Gokiso hubs in one of his wheelsets:

http://www.gokiso.jp/en/index.html

It appears that it is an attempt to make suspended bearings. I like the concept and the hubs look beautiful. Has anyone heard of these before or seen anything similar in terms of design elements?

Victor's blog at Velocite: http://blog.velocite-bikes.com/2011/08/ ... ir-wheels/


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:39 pm 
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I just found the weight listings in their convoluted website; 240g F / 455g R.

Guess it's a fail unless you're building a dedicated pave' wheelset. Still, would be interesting to see how smoothly they ride.


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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:39 pm 


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:01 pm 
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I recall a mtn bike hubset built on this concept in the early '90s... they didn't last very long. I don't recall the name of the company.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:05 pm 
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The one I remember was something like this... http://www.pantourhub.com/products.html

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:07 pm 
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Here's a video explaining the concept.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsAIu5Vx ... re=related

Now they just need to cut the weight and price in half.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:29 pm 
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Excellent way to ruin bike handling and predictable steering! :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:30 am 
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I wonder how the rear hub deals with pedaling torque... :hmm:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:18 pm 
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I'll check it out at Interbike. I can even talk to them in Japanese


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:11 pm 
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mythical wrote:
Excellent way to ruin bike handling and predictable steering! :thumbup:


When they approached us I also thought it was a suspension system for the bike and I launched into telling them how that is a terrible idea.

They eventually got a word in edgewise and pointed out that this is not a suspension system for the bike, but just for the bearings. They also did not arrive at this at random, but through a very long development process, drawing on their jet turbine experience. The idea of the Gokiso "suspension " is to allow only radial loads through to the bearings.

We will see how well this works in practice soon(ish).

V.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:36 am 
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vmajor wrote:
mythical wrote:
Excellent way to ruin bike handling and predictable steering! :thumbup:


When they approached us I also thought it was a suspension system for the bike and I launched into telling them how that is a terrible idea.

They eventually got a word in edgewise and pointed out that this is not a suspension system for the bike, but just for the bearings. They also did not arrive at this at random, but through a very long development process, drawing on their jet turbine experience. The idea of the Gokiso "suspension " is to allow only radial loads through to the bearings.

We will see how well this works in practice soon(ish).

V.



considering the really high price on these hubs, and high weight, will it bring pup the price and weight on your wheelsets?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:46 pm 
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Yes, by quite a lot. But we will "bling" them up a lot and include some useful accessories and other things to make the ownership experience of the wheels match their intended purpose, ie. competitive TT/tri racing at the highest level.

...provided the hubs do deliver even the slightest improvement.

V.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:20 pm 
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I'd like to know about your findings, especially at 200km/h! :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:29 am 
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may be a better idea for BB?? :noidea:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:28 am 
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I'm a non believer. The smaller bearings use smaller balls, larger balls will preform better (lower drag, for starters) and last longer. (relative high forces, low RPM, the smaller the balls, the smaller the contact area of the balls/races, the bigger the resistance/wear)

In the video they show an old school non industrial bearing (while most of us ride industrial bearings to start with), and they mention rotational vibrations as an issue. This is rubbish, rotational vibration is an issue at much, much higher RPM's

These hubs add flexibility to a place you don't want it. the +/- .5mm 'play' at the hub will translate into a way bigger play at the rim. they claim a fork is shaped like an inverted V with dito drop-outs, forgetting that all our forks have parallel flanges.

Technically, It's an engineering marvel, but it's based on made up issues. The designer needs to check his facts before diving too enthusiastic in drawing a product.

Sorry Victor, I personally don't believe in this product for mentioned reasons, it's not my intention to have a negative effect on your business.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:55 am 
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Yes, Gokiso definitively have very firm beliefs, but they insist it is just sound engineering.

Regarding our business, we do not make the hubs and are at the moment evaluating them for future use. Once we have the performance data it will not be a matter of philosophy, or beliefs. The hubs will either deliver the performance improvement, without significant noticeable adverse effects (increased weight, handling, whatever), or they will not.

We can then debate whether our experiment design and choice of statistical tools was adequate :-)

The business part of the same blog post is the Gram SL carbon matrix clincher rim. There is a lot less conjecture about its performance however, since it is much easier to assess by everyone. I nevertheless expect great things once the matching hubs are finished.


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Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:55 am 


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